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Old 09-23-2015, 07:01 PM   #81
The CyNick
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Do those include spandex spendings and shit like that?
Its not a specific line item.
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Old 09-23-2015, 07:37 PM   #82
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Seriously what the fuck are you all arguing about? Don't know what the fuck happened to this thread. Original poster was right though, fucking product sucks so much right now. You can all bitch about ratings/original plans/Batista's cock all you like. Doesn't change the fact that WWE programming is so boring right now.
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Old 09-23-2015, 08:20 PM   #83
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Lol at this thread and Cynick. Dude must be a member of the Vince McMahon kiss my ass club. Anyone that thinks it was the plan for Bryan to main event WM30 from the start is blind. They literally had to pull him out of a feud with Wyatt in which he had just became a member of the Wyatt family.
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Old 09-23-2015, 10:04 PM   #84
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I'm still wondering why anyone would pay money to see Cena v Rollins on ppv or the Network when we've gotten it for free pretty much all year. I don't understand the business model behind that.
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Old 09-23-2015, 10:27 PM   #85
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Without ads and they know they don't show everything they can do on free tv.
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Old 09-23-2015, 10:57 PM   #86
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Cynick is a black hole of brutality, going to have to ignore him from now on.]

Current product is boring. Nuff said
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Old 09-24-2015, 08:07 AM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorgeous Dale Newstead View Post
Cynick is a black hole of brutality, going to have to ignore him from now on.]

Current product is boring. Nuff said
Yup. So we'll meet up Monday night to discuss RAW? And every week after that and every PPV? We can make lists about how much this show we watch week in and week out blows. It'll be fun.
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Old 09-24-2015, 09:33 AM   #88
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I won't be there you guys will have to tell me what happens.
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He was working with HHH and Steph THE ENTIRE road to Mania. Clearly they were going somewhere with him, and clearly he was a central part of the storyline.
No he was working with Bray Wyatt until WWE had to abort that feud.
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Old 09-24-2015, 09:35 AM   #89
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Without ads and they know they don't show everything they can do on free tv.
"Television, not TV."
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Old 09-24-2015, 10:49 AM   #90
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Whenever America decides to stop the PC, then we will see the return of the Attitude. Sorry not sorry guys, Attitude Era fan in the house
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Old 09-24-2015, 11:12 AM   #91
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Don't know why the WWE refuses to call it Brocktoberfest. Have him do a gauntlet for 3 hours on raw.
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Old 09-24-2015, 11:12 AM   #92
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"Television, not TV."
Hmmm is the WWE Network television or not. Let us debate.
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Old 09-24-2015, 11:22 AM   #93
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"Television, not TV."
Also, advertisements, not ads.
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Old 09-24-2015, 11:43 AM   #94
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The product could still thrive without the crash tv approach. The problem lies in not investing in anyone not named Cena. Your top champion shouldn't be losing at all unless he's being a scum bag getting disqualified.

Giving away matches for free, like Cena Rollins. Maybe the televised matches aren't as good as the Network special bouts, but it's still the two same guys going at it on free tv. Kills any hype. Lesnar only wrestling on ppv made him a legit prize fighter attraction. Of course Rollins being featured weekly and defending the belt monthly will water that down, but he shouldn't be getting pinned or submitted cleanly on tv.

The other issue is direction. CyNick joked about Rusev being a contender for Brock and he's right in doing so, citing the currently lame direction they have him going. He went from having a great debut run, through a solid program with Cena, to feuding with a now kinda creepy Dolph Ziggler. Lana goes from being a strong, intelligent woman to arm candy scorned by a seemingly unfaithful man. It was needless and only diminished the characters they spent nearly a year building.

And of course Bray Wyatt should be a, if not the top heel in the company, but he's never been pushed to that level despite consistently delivering on the micand in the ring. He's been over guys like Ambrose, Reigns and Bryan, but they haven't given him that one signature win and I don't understand why.
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Old 09-24-2015, 12:02 PM   #95
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I've basically lost faith in Wyatt ever being the top heel in the company. Just feels like it would have happened by now rather than him spending the better part of 2 years just sorta treading water and never really gaining any long-term momentum. Maybe they just don't have faith in his ability to go out an put on an interesting 20 minute main event every PPV.

I mean, even his matches with Cena and Taker were boring as fuck IMO. They clearly trust him to deliver the goods on the mic but the end result ends up just falling flat.
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Old 09-24-2015, 12:04 PM   #96
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Joking aside, Lesnar vs. Rusev is something I can totally see the WWE doing at WrestleMania next year. They'll just pretend that this extended back-and-forth program with Dolph Ziggler never happened.
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Old 09-24-2015, 12:04 PM   #97
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All this losing of faith in guys having huge futures sure is great for business isn't it?
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Old 09-24-2015, 12:07 PM   #98
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The legitimate plans for SmackDown circa 2006/2007 was to launch into a Bobby Lashley/Mr. Kennedy/MVP era. All of those guys are still wrestling, but two left the company and one got fired. It's sad to think about where guys can be not ten years after having the world in their hands.
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Old 09-24-2015, 12:20 PM   #99
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Quote:
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Lol at this thread and Cynick. Dude must be a member of the Vince McMahon kiss my ass club. Anyone that thinks it was the plan for Bryan to main event WM30 from the start is blind. They literally had to pull him out of a feud with Wyatt in which he had just became a member of the Wyatt family.
The angle played itself out. Bryan wanted to get Bray alone.

I don't think Bryan winning was necessarily the plan the day after Mania 29, but I do think it was in the plans months before 30. Hence all the interactions with HHH.

But keep thinking everything was an accident
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Old 09-24-2015, 12:29 PM   #100
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The thing about Rusev/Lesnar is that it more intriguing than Show/Lesnar.

Henry/Lesnar is more intriguing. Anyone on the roster is more intriguing than Show/Lesnar.

I'd rather see Lesnar eat Fandango than even touch Big Show.
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Old 09-24-2015, 12:36 PM   #101
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Cesaro has been challenging guys who'vehad more success than he has in recent history. Him taking out Big Show and claiming his spot to take on Lesnar would've been far more intriguing. You know Cesaro will lose but the matchup is fresh and Cesaro looks good hitting some power moves and getting a near fall on Lesnar.

The Big Show match, which we saw a few years ago at the Royal Rumble when Lesnar destroyed him, is a bore. I have zero interest in a match we've seen a thousand times.
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Old 09-24-2015, 12:46 PM   #102
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Quote:
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The legitimate plans for SmackDown circa 2006/2007 was to launch into a Bobby Lashley/Mr. Kennedy/MVP era. All of those guys are still wrestling, but two left the company and one got fired. It's sad to think about where guys can be not ten years after having the world in their hands.
I would love for MVP to come back as a veteran presence on NXT a la Rhyno. His initial gimmick was drawn from these diva athletes who think they're hot shit...have him come in and try to align himself with Apollo Crews, maybe even trying to be his "agent" and over time he tries to turn Crews into an asshole himself and when it backfires they can feud.

Dunno...I love MVP so I would welcome a return in any capacity. His podcast with Jericho though kinda implied that retirement would be more likely than going back to WWE. Understandable given that he's nearly 42 years old.
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Old 09-24-2015, 01:30 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
Yup. So we'll meet up Monday night to discuss RAW? And every week after that and every PPV? We can make lists about how much this show we watch week in and week out blows. It'll be fun.
Fact is whenever I give the product a chance I am drastically disappointed. What captured my imagination and made me a fan is for all intents and purposes gone from the wwe. When I was younger my expectations were lower because I was 7. Now I'm 28 and I need something more stimulating. Not a wrestling show being written like a variety tv show. I still love wrestling though. It's unfortunate that the only game in town lacks the vision to make it must watch t.v.
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Old 09-24-2015, 01:33 PM   #104
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I've basically lost faith in Wyatt ever being the top heel in the company. Just feels like it would have happened by now rather than him spending the better part of 2 years just sorta treading water and never really gaining any long-term momentum. Maybe they just don't have faith in his ability to go out an put on an interesting 20 minute main event every PPV.

I mean, even his matches with Cena and Taker were boring as fuck IMO. They clearly trust him to deliver the goods on the mic but the end result ends up just falling flat.
He should have beaten Cena at Mania since it would have established him as the top bad guy (at least to the kids) and give Cena's character a fresh boost in a new direction.

Going into that match, the whole emphasis was on Cena's legacy and him not wanting to turn to the darkside in order to beat Bray. Could have redone the redemption angle he had with Rock except this time not be half-assed at the last moment.

Cena could lose casting doubt on how strong his legacy is after all or lose and also "turn" that causes his character to become corrupted a bit. Him beating Rusev a year later for the US belt would have been huge in terms of redemption.
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Old 09-24-2015, 01:34 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
So? In your mind, if you dont have ratings at 2005 levels, you cant be financially successful?

How people consume the product today is much different than it was in 1995 and even 2005. Surely you can understand that.
Nobody is talking about financial success, we are talking about putting forth a great product. 2 and a half men was still financially successful with Ashton kutcher, while simultaneously eating a dick.
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Old 09-24-2015, 06:03 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by Damian Rey View Post
The product could still thrive without the crash tv approach. The problem lies in not investing in anyone not named Cena. Your top champion shouldn't be losing at all unless he's being a scum bag getting disqualified.

Giving away matches for free, like Cena Rollins. Maybe the televised matches aren't as good as the Network special bouts, but it's still the two same guys going at it on free tv. Kills any hype. Lesnar only wrestling on ppv made him a legit prize fighter attraction. Of course Rollins being featured weekly and defending the belt monthly will water that down, but he shouldn't be getting pinned or submitted cleanly on tv.

The other issue is direction. CyNick joked about Rusev being a contender for Brock and he's right in doing so, citing the currently lame direction they have him going. He went from having a great debut run, through a solid program with Cena, to feuding with a now kinda creepy Dolph Ziggler. Lana goes from being a strong, intelligent woman to arm candy scorned by a seemingly unfaithful man. It was needless and only diminished the characters they spent nearly a year building.

And of course Bray Wyatt should be a, if not the top heel in the company, but he's never been pushed to that level despite consistently delivering on the micand in the ring. He's been over guys like Ambrose, Reigns and Bryan, but they haven't given him that one signature win and I don't understand why.
If a heel never loses, he becomes a babyface real quick. Its human nature to root for the team that wins all the time. When they want to turn Rollins, he will start to accumulate wins.

As for Cena, he should be protected, he's far and away the biggest star in the company. However, for a star of his magnitude, he puts over TONS of people.

Im not a huge fan of PPV rematches on TV the night after the Special. However, in some cases they are okay, and serve to move along storylines. There's never going to be a rule that covers all scenarios. TV is important, you need to keep people watching. If no big matches ever happened on RAW, people would likely tune out.

I think they missed the target with the Rusev-Lana thing. I think they thought moving Lana away from Rusev would turn her into a Sable type character after she left Mero. IMO the mistake was making it a love foursome, instead of just having Lana leave Rusev and do her own thing. Now I think they just need to bring them back together.

Wyatt to me is a strange one. I love his gimmick, I love the way he's portrayed, but I just dont think the average fan digs him. I think people like his intro, and all the bells and whistles around the gimmick. I hear a lot of BORING and WHAT chants when Bray is doing longer promos. Thats not conducive to being a #1 type heel.
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Old 09-24-2015, 06:07 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by Gorgeous Dale Newstead View Post
Nobody is talking about financial success, we are talking about putting forth a great product. 2 and a half men was still financially successful with Ashton kutcher, while simultaneously eating a dick.
Yeah but now you're in a territory where you are saying your opinion is all that matters. Which is why you fit well with the IWC mentality. You have a small percentage of the audience that follows newsletters and newz sites, and you guys think the WWE should cater to you. Meanwhile all you do is bitch about the product, BUT the kicker is you are the most loyal fans WWE has.

So its odd to expect them to cater to you. The financial success of the company is the only thing that matters. Sure, ratings are lower than 1999. But guess what, technology has changed since then. There are more cable channels since then. Of course ratings are going to be lower. Would WWE trade in their 1999 TV contract for their 2015 TV contract? I highly doubt it. Sure, higher ratings would be amazing, but the bottom line is the bottom line. And the bottom line is really healthy for WWE right now. So something must be going right.
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Old 09-24-2015, 06:21 PM   #108
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I'm not going to dignify the argument with an actual argument, and just say you're basing everything on non-sensical biases and assumptions. I am a super loyal wrestling fan because I've watched since the age of four. You're actually just being silly and grasping at straws.
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Old 09-24-2015, 06:42 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by Vito Cruz View Post
I would love for MVP to come back as a veteran presence on NXT a la Rhyno. His initial gimmick was drawn from these diva athletes who think they're hot shit...have him come in and try to align himself with Apollo Crews, maybe even trying to be his "agent" and over time he tries to turn Crews into an asshole himself and when it backfires they can feud.

Dunno...I love MVP so I would welcome a return in any capacity. His podcast with Jericho though kinda implied that retirement would be more likely than going back to WWE. Understandable given that he's nearly 42 years old.
MVP would suit NXT. Personally, I've wanted Finlay to return and work a program with Tyler Breeze. I think MVP could be the "big star humbled" in NXT.
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Old 09-24-2015, 07:18 PM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
If a heel never loses, he becomes a babyface real quick. Its human nature to root for the team that wins all the time. When they want to turn Rollins, he will start to accumulate wins.

As for Cena, he should be protected, he's far and away the biggest star in the company. However, for a star of his magnitude, he puts over TONS of people.

Im not a huge fan of PPV rematches on TV the night after the Special. However, in some cases they are okay, and serve to move along storylines. There's never going to be a rule that covers all scenarios. TV is important, you need to keep people watching. If no big matches ever happened on RAW, people would likely tune out.

I think they missed the target with the Rusev-Lana thing. I think they thought moving Lana away from Rusev would turn her into a Sable type character after she left Mero. IMO the mistake was making it a love foursome, instead of just having Lana leave Rusev and do her own thing. Now I think they just need to bring them back together.

Wyatt to me is a strange one. I love his gimmick, I love the way he's portrayed, but I just dont think the average fan digs him. I think people like his intro, and all the bells and whistles around the gimmick. I hear a lot of BORING and WHAT chants when Bray is doing longer promos. Thats not conducive to being a #1 type heel.
I don't recall Triple H losing all that much during his bastard heel run in the Attitude era. He won constantly. It wasn't until he got hurt and came back that he was cheered. And even then, that didn't even last a year. He became the top heel in Raw, won a fuck ton, and the crowd never turned, sans his Mania match with Cena.

They don't need to book Rollins cleanly over every opponent. I'm all for cheap wins because his character fits the slime ball type. Giving a guy like Ryback a roll up victory via distraction every now and again is fine. However, your top champion should in no way lose constantly, on television no less, by being pinned or submitted. By hook or crook a heel champion should be trying to gain heat by going through the back door for victories.

Cena has lost, sure. But other than Punk, who has gone on to be billed as an equal star? I guess you could try top argue Bryan, but injuries will likely leave us never knowing what the outcome of a title run would be. Even when Punk was on top, he wasn't the man like Cena has been the man. That's not Cena's fault, however, using him to elevate younger guys into more prominent positions within the company has been a massive failure on the company's end. Owens, Wyatt, Rusev should all be bigger deals. Thankfully, Owens is being given a go as intercontinental champion in a soft reboot. Those other two went nowhere fast.

I typically watch Raw weekly, and I've never hear a boring chant at Wyatt. Not saying it hasn't happened, but I've yet to experience it. Also, his cadence in his promos does not lend itself to getting the what chant. He's one of the few people other than Cena who can actually promo like he's conversing instead of regurgitating lines.

I still believe he can be a big deal. Everything is in place to make him a top star. It's whether or not they pull the trigger and give him the right direction that's the pending issue for him.
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Old 09-24-2015, 07:25 PM   #111
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One more point. They've been giving away free matches in tv for years. Ratings are dwindling. We could only guess that people have found other forms of entertainment on Monday nights that better hold their attention.

The big match is seemingly not much of a draw. Maybe if they took thethree hours of television and used it to invest in the talent that's being grossly underutilized, and gave them real direction and character arcs, the ratings would come back.

The fact that Raw's viewership is consistently dwindling, imo, speaks to the lack of care and concern in which the WWE writes and develops its flagship show and the roster they have at their disposal.
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Old 09-24-2015, 08:29 PM   #112
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Honestly, with the WWE Network and other online avenues, there's so much awesome stuff from years gone by to explore and watch now that I can't be bothered anymore to watch Smackdown or Raw,

Currently watch a WWF MSG show from 1984. Murdoch and Adnois vs the Wild Samoans two out of three falls on right now and I'm highly enjoying it. Murdoch and Adonis were an awesome team,
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Old 09-24-2015, 08:33 PM   #113
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There's a Flair Hogan match on one of those msg shows that I thoroughly enjoyed.
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Old 09-24-2015, 09:12 PM   #114
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The MSG shows from the 80's/early 90's are always a fun watch.
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Old 09-24-2015, 09:49 PM   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorgeous Dale Newstead View Post
I'm not going to dignify the argument with an actual argument, and just say you're basing everything on non-sensical biases and assumptions. I am a super loyal wrestling fan because I've watched since the age of four. You're actually just being silly and grasping at straws.
Funny, I feel the same about you. Im not the one preaching about how much something I watch every week sucks.

Take some time away from the sheets and see how much more enjoyable the product becomes. Its not perfect all the time, but its still entertaining. Thats why I watch.
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Old 09-25-2015, 12:10 AM   #116
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No one over the age of 10 who wasn't hooked on wrestling from a prior generation is tuning in now and saying "Gee. This is compelling." It's just an abysmal product. It really is, without exaggeration, probably the most poorly written thing on television. You can only stay complacent with what you've created in the past for so long before you need to actually produce something worth watching in the present again.
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Old 09-25-2015, 12:16 AM   #117
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I think CyNick has a point though. Extreme knowledge of the behind the scenes of the product from dirt sheets hurts enjoyment. That Dolphinfan guy's predictions ruined many ppvs when people (OwenBrown) would post what he found out on threads. When Jim Cornette was working for TNA he overtly stayed away from finding out what was going to happen for a (slight) chance to enjoy the show.
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Old 09-25-2015, 09:24 AM   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
If a heel never loses, he becomes a babyface real quick. Its human nature to root for the team that wins all the time. When they want to turn Rollins, he will start to accumulate wins.
I don't remember people cheering Rusev last year.
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Old 09-25-2015, 09:30 AM   #119
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They cheered for him at the royal rumble bc no one wanted Romen Reigns to win. I was torn who to cheer for. I can't go against the anti USA #1 soviet but then again Roman Reigns was so undeserving bc the Internet tells me so.
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Old 09-25-2015, 09:57 AM   #120
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I cheered for Curtis Axel.
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