The thread where we get CyNick to defend maligned storylines, and tell us how we don't understand...

[Simple Fan]

Who would you have the other opponent be on Raw? Couldnt see it being Stone Cold being IC champ but maybe Kane who had just beat Mankind. Kane could have held the title til the next PPV where Shawn takes it off him.

[The CyNick]

Originally Posted by Simple Fan Who would you have the other opponent be on Raw? Couldnt see it being Stone Cold being IC champ but maybe Kane who had just beat Mankind. Kane could have held the title til the next PPV where Shawn takes it off him.

Austin would have been too early. They wanted to build up to Austin winning at Mania. Having him win randomly on RAW would have been very WCW.

[Simple Fan]

That's why I said I couldnt see it being Stone Cold.

[The CyNick]

Originally Posted by Simple Fan That's why I said I couldnt see it being Stone Cold.

I wasnt disagreeing, just piling on the point you made.

[KIRA]

Ok Cynick whats your opinion on the New Day? They've stated on Jericho's podcast that they have creative control and the New Day we see now is NOT what Vince had in mind.(obviously)He saw them as babyface's with a stereotypical(basically a trio of gospel preachers) gimmick and according to them he isn't all that happy and he was surprised that it didn't pan out(which kinda backs up the whole Vince is old and outta touch thing)

[BigCrippyZ]

Originally Posted by KIRA Ok Cynick whats your opinion on the New Day? They've stated on Jericho's podcast that they have creative control and the New Day we see now is NOT what Vince had in mind.(obviously)He saw them as babyface's with a stereotypical gimmick and according to them he isn't all that happy and he was surprised that it didn't pan out(which kinda backs up the whole Vince is old and outta touch thing)

According to Cynick, it doesn't matter what New Day has stated. If it doesn't come from HHH or Vince, it isn't credible and likely isn't true.

In any event, Cynick thinks that Vince is a creative genius who, despite his age is more in tune with what makes great entertainment than even the fans are. In this scenario, Vince's creative genius, etc. is evidenced by not coming up with a successful gimmick for New Day on his own, but instead letting New Day come up with their own creative.

[KIRA]

Originally Posted by BigCrippyZ According to Cynick, it doesn't matter what New Day has stated. If it doesn't come from HHH or Vince, it isn't credible and likely isn't true. In any event, Cynick thinks that Vince is a creative genius who, despite his age is more in tune with what makes great entertainment than even the fans are. In this scenario, Vince's creative genius, etc. is evidenced by not coming up with a successful gimmick for New Day on his own, but instead letting New Day come up with their own creative.

They also confirmed (without actually saying it)what we've always known Vince doesn't like ideas that don't come from him no matter how good they are.

[KIRA]

Originally Posted by BigCrippyZ According to Cynick, it doesn't matter what New Day has stated. If it doesn't come from HHH or Vince, it isn't credible and likely isn't true. In any event, Cynick thinks that Vince is a creative genius who, despite his age is more in tune with what makes great entertainment than even the fans are. In this scenario, Vince's creative genius, etc. is evidenced by not coming up with a successful gimmick for New Day on his own, but instead letting New Day come up with their own creative.

I think I'll be at a loss for words if the response I get is something along the lines of "See Vince is still a genius because he knew enough to trust New Day with their own creative output."

[The CyNick]

Originally Posted by KIRA I think I'll be at a loss for words if the response I get is something along the lines of "See Vince is still a genius because he knew enough to trust New Day with their own creative output."

I started listening to the Jericho podcast with New Day that some people have brought up. Haven't got through the whole thing yet.

Sounds like Vince thought the group had potential and was stuck for a gimmick. He came up with the preacher idea and thought it would get over as a babyface act. It was working in some towns, but the smark cities they were a heel, which started to carry over. They got a really strong heel reaction the day after Mania, so Vince agreed to go heel with the act.

The takeaway for me is Vince had the vision that the three guys would work as an act. He thought a bunch of black guys spreading positivity would catch on as a babyface act. He then listened to the crowd and went in the other direction for the time being. The ironic thing is New Day will likely end up as babyfaces, so Vince will be ultimately proven correct. The only difference is I think the act will have a little more of an edge than Vince originally expected. The cool thing about listening to those guys is they personify what Vince has been challenging the talent to do. Take an interest in your characters direction, and really own it. Makes me like these guys even more, and reiterates what I've believed, which is the system is there to make stars, and works when the talent is motivated and skilled.

[KIRA]

Originally Posted by The CyNick I The cool thing about listening to those guys is they personify what Vince has been challenging the talent to do. Take an interest in your characters direction, and really own it. Makes me like these guys even more, and reiterates what I've believed, which is the system is there to make stars, and works when the talent is motivated and skilled.

I'm pretty sure that not everyone has the creative freedom that New Day has.

In other words work within our really rigid system and get yourself over. You hear that Johnny Curtis? It's your fault that despite being insanely talented you can't get over with your lack of TV time and stupid gimmick.


The system is not there to make stars it's there to elevate a select few who fit a certain criteria.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Originally Posted by KIRA Ok Cynick whats your opinion on the New Day? They've stated on Jericho's podcast that they have creative control and the New Day we see now is NOT what Vince had in mind.(obviously)He saw them as babyface's with a stereotypical(basically a trio of gospel preachers) gimmick and according to them he isn't all that happy and he was surprised that it didn't pan out(which kinda backs up the whole Vince is old and outta touch thing)

We've already addressed this. Cynicks talked to Vince and this is actually what he wanted because he is in fact a man of the people

[SlickyTrickyDamon]

How I would have handled Montreal

Austin/Owen have their match as it went down and Bret cuts a promo on Owen saying how he let his entire family and country down. Owen tells him to fuck off and challenges him to put the belt on the line against him right now! Owen wins clean and is the WWE Champion. HBK and Bret then have their match without the title.

HBK wins the title on Raw from Owen. Giving Owen a deserved title reign and respect. If Bret wouldn't job to Owen then he should be the one who died.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

I think these thoughts from Mick Foley echo our statements. I mean I know Mick is nothing compared to Vince and HHH, and has never accomplished anything in the business. And yeah, I don't think anybody cares about swearing and cussing and attitude era raunchiness but realistically they've killed a lot of the art behind it. I've heard Bautista echo these statements too. Listen to what the boys say, they don't think it's all sunshine and lollipops either.


FINAL RAW FOR FOLEY?
WWE is at a real crossroads. Allow me to paraphrase Albert Einstein, who said "the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over, and expecting different results". Wrestling historians can argue about when the ‪#‎AttitudeEra‬ in wrestling officially began. But for me, it will always be at a meeting called by Mr McMahon in the Spring of 1997, where he admitted that what had worked for them for so long in the past (I interpreted that to mean one-dimensional characters that tended to be job-related) was no longer working, and that if they were going to survive, the wrestlers themselves were going to have to step up, and help create those dimensions that would establish the emotional bond between the wrestlers and the fans - part of the lifeblood of professional wrestling.
Today's WWE Superstars (I'm including the women here, since the term "Diva" had its time, and that time is done) are at a distinct disadvantage in some ways. They can't flip birds, and use the colorful language. They can't bleed - even when the situation seems ripe for it. Man, Roman Reigns life would be so much easier if he could survive vicious assaults - and be left bloodied, but unbowed - the way guys in my era did. But all the blood, the language and the violence paled in comparison to the real secret weapon of the Attitude Era; FREEDOM! The freedom to CREATE..the freedom to TRY... the freedom to FAIL - the idea that going down swinging (I hope I'm not losing you guys in all the non-baseball playing countries) was almost as important as hitting the ball out of the park - as long as you took your best swings. There's a difference between playing to win, and playing not to lose: one breeds confidence, the other breeds fear.It's the difference between cutting the type of promos Stone Cold Steve Austin and Dwayne The Rock Johnson gave, and the cookie-cutter approach all too often employed these days by WWE creative. One style allowed for creativity and emotion. The other calls for memorization and recitation.
I hope I don't sound like I'm picking on WWE. There is a big part of me that loves this company, and always will. Why else would I be up at 4:15 am, writing things that are likely to banish me deeper and deeper into the WWE doghouse? One of my favorite wrestlers proposed a storyline that would allow me a four of five week storyline that would allow me to dig in deep, and swing for the fences - and in the process, maybe advance a few of the super-talented but underutilized athletes on the roster. I would love to do it....but I doubt it's going to happen. After all, I might want to do something crazy like go out there without a script, and try to create some real emotion - in other words, the type of thing that saved WWE in the late 90's.
The talent pool has never been deeper. But the creative flow is stagnant...and it's been stinking for a while. I quoted Einstein to begin this thing. Let me conclude with the immortal words of Owen Heart: "Enough's enough: it's time for a change!"

[CSL]

there's an awful lot of information you're leaving out right there which you probably know and aren't adding for the sake of "doing your thing". If that isn't the case, you should probably look into that

[The CyNick]

Originally Posted by CSL there's an awful lot of information you're leaving out right there which you probably know and aren't adding for the sake of "doing your thing". If that isn't the case, you should probably look into that

Care to elaborate?

Keep in mind I've only listed to about 10 minutes. Which isn't "doing my thing", unless my thing is being busy at the time.

[CSL]

Originally Posted by The CyNick Care to elaborate? Keep in mind I've only listed to about 10 minutes. Which isn't "doing my thing", unless my thing is being busy at the time.

to be quick, you left out:

-Bret had a certain level of creative control over the final 30 days of his contract, something Vince agreed to when they signed the 20 year deal

-Bret had a month left on his contract after Montreal, his final scheduled date was the following PPV or the RAW after, something they specifically negotiated with Bischoff/WCW to allow Bret to drop the belt

-Due to the ongoing lawsuits between WWE and WCW stemming from the likeness/copyright/intellectual property with Hall and co, there isn't a chance WCW would ever have had Bret show up with the belt on their TV show. They'd have been sued into oblivion

-Bret was willing to put anybody else over before or after Montreal/the Canada trip. He even was willing to put Shawn over at the following PPV despite the fact that...

-Shawn (then at the height of his "off the rails" period) point blank told Bret to his face he wasn't willing to ever put him over, which led to the initial hesitance on Bret's part (as well as admittedly taking the whole Canada schtick a bit too seriously) to drop the belt to Shawn at all

[Corporate CockSnogger]

Originally Posted by SlickyTrickyDamon How I would have handled Montreal Austin/Owen have their match as it went down and Bret cuts a promo on Owen saying how he let his entire family and country down. Owen tells him to fuck off and challenges him to put the belt on the line against him right now! Owen wins clean and is the WWE Champion. HBK and Bret then have their match without the title. HBK wins the title on Raw from Owen. Giving Owen a deserved title reign and respect. If Bret wouldn't job to Owen then he should be the one who died.

Hey guys, this post happened as well you know...

[drave]

Originally Posted by Corporate CockSnogger Hey guys, this post happened as well you know...

We tend to just look past the majority of STD's posts anymore. It's kinda like he gets a Dana Brooke pat to the head for doing a good job.

[The CyNick]

Originally Posted by CSL to be quick, you left out: -Bret had a certain level of creative control over the final 30 days of his contract, something Vince agreed to when they signed the 20 year deal -Bret had a month left on his contract after Montreal, his final scheduled date was the following PPV or the RAW after, something they specifically negotiated with Bischoff/WCW to allow Bret to drop the belt -Due to the ongoing lawsuits between WWE and WCW stemming from the likeness/copyright/intellectual property with Hall and co, there isn't a chance WCW would ever have had Bret show up with the belt on their TV show. They'd have been sued into oblivion -Bret was willing to put anybody else over before or after Montreal/the Canada trip. He even was willing to put Shawn over at the following PPV despite the fact that... -Shawn (then at the height of his "off the rails" period) point blank told Bret to his face he wasn't willing to ever put him over, which led to the initial hesitance on Bret's part (as well as admittedly taking the whole Canada schtick a bit too seriously) to drop the belt to Shawn at all

Sorry I thought you were talking about the New Day convo.

Trust me my man, I know every painful detail about this story from everyone who was there (well at least what they said publically).

I understand that Bret had "reasonable creative control". To me its reasonable and professional to JOB to one guy of the company's choosing prior to leaving.

Bret to me last all credibility in his documentary when he said losing in Montreal would be like the character blowing his brains out in the middle of the ring. Theres no other way to describe that line of thinking than batshit crazy. Imagine if Nash had said the same about putting over Taker clean at 12.

The issue about showing up with the title was moot. It wouldn't matter if he showed up with the physical belt, he would have already announced he was leaving on TV (that was Bret's idea), so as a fan, and subsequent loss would have looked phony.

There's no doubt Vince created an issue by signing the deal he did, but if I were Vince, I would have thought asking Bret to put over ONE top talent was within reason. And it's impossible to argue it wasn't reasonable. If Vince would have asked Bret to drop the strap to Chyna in Montreal, I could see a beef with that. But this was Shawn, Bret should have been a pro and just put over Shawn and walked into the sunset. His ego got in the way of good business.

[CSL]

Originally Posted by The CyNick To me, you couldnt let Bret walk out of Survivor Series as champion. I'm sure we have all heard interviews with Bret, and realize he takes the business and his character really seriously. Maybe too seriously. As a result, it clouded his judgment and he acted selfishly and refusing to drop to Shawn in Montreal. From Vince's POV, you have Bret going to Turner, and you have this big grudge match booked. Standard wrestling booking is when a guy is leaving a territory, he does the favours. It was perfectly reasonable for Vince to EXPECT Bret to put over someone of his choosing. Bret and Shawn were rivals, and if Bret is leaving, you want Shawn to look like the superior talent. Bret acted childish, and refused, so Vince was backed into a corner.

Originally Posted by The CyNick He was backed into a corner You have your champion leaving and refusing to put over the guy you want to be the heir apparent. Nash put over HBK and Taker on his way out. Why couldn't Bret put over HBK? Bret left Vince with no choice. Well, no good choice anyway.

Originally Posted by The CyNick I understand that Bret had "reasonable creative control". To me its reasonable and professional to JOB to one guy of the company's choosing prior to leaving. Bret to me last all credibility in his documentary when he said losing in Montreal would be like the character blowing his brains out in the middle of the ring. Theres no other way to describe that line of thinking than batshit crazy. Imagine if Nash had said the same about putting over Taker clean at 12. The issue about showing up with the title was moot. It wouldn't matter if he showed up with the physical belt, he would have already announced he was leaving on TV (that was Bret's idea), so as a fan, and subsequent loss would have looked phony. There's no doubt Vince created an issue by signing the deal he did, but if I were Vince, I would have thought asking Bret to put over ONE top talent was within reason. And it's impossible to argue it wasn't reasonable. If Vince would have asked Bret to drop the strap to Chyna in Montreal, I could see a beef with that. But this was Shawn, Bret should have been a pro and just put over Shawn and walked into the sunset. His ego got in the way of good business.

Cynick, buddy, pal, sweetums, these 3 posts say pretty much the exact same thing whilst ignoring logic and the majority of my response. So there is still nothing to actually respond to or "counterpoint".

[hb2k]

Originally Posted by The CyNick I understand that Bret had "reasonable creative control". To me its reasonable and professional to JOB to one guy of the company's choosing prior to leaving. The issue about showing up with the title was moot. It wouldn't matter if he showed up with the physical belt, he would have already announced he was leaving on TV (that was Bret's idea), so as a fan, and subsequent loss would have looked phony. There's no doubt Vince created an issue by signing the deal he did, but if I were Vince, I would have thought asking Bret to put over ONE top talent was within reason. And it's impossible to argue it wasn't reasonable. If Vince would have asked Bret to drop the strap to Chyna in Montreal, I could see a beef with that. But this was Shawn, Bret should have been a pro and just put over Shawn and walked into the sunset. His ego got in the way of good business.

Bret proposed losing to anybody, including Shawn, once that two day period in Canada was over with. Bret handing the belt over was a suggestion that Vince agreed to, not an order, Vince had the same right to veto that Bret did, they could have worked out a better plan if he wanted to. Bret suggested it because his leaving got out in newspapers, hotlines and the internet anyway, and Vince agreed that since people knew anyway, it didn't matter if Bischoff announced it. I don't see how any of this is Vince backed into a corner.

Originally Posted by The CyNick Bret to me last all credibility in his documentary when he said losing in Montreal would be like the character blowing his brains out in the middle of the ring. Theres no other way to describe that line of thinking than batshit crazy. Imagine if Nash had said the same about putting over Taker clean at 12.

This is an absolutely absurd comparison. It's not even remotely the same thing. Bret signed a huge deal because his value to his new employer was largely based on his strength in the Canadian market, which WCW had historically never done well in. Nash's value at Mania 12 is a wrestler on a wrestling show. Bret's value in Canada was his entire selling point from a negotiating perspective, and since he added reasonable creative control to specifically avoid being devalued on the way out, Bret saw dropping the belt in Canada to the guy who picked his nose with and fucked the Canadian flag as potentially damaging to his value. Anybody that argues against it using the "well what if I don't job in America" is either a complete idiot, or so badly want to be anti-Bret that they are flagrantly ignoring the obvious. Bret put that creative control clause in so he couldn't be downgraded. They put him in a position to be potentially downgraded. He suggested losing elsewhere where it wouldn't be so damaging.

And of all the fucking people to make a comparison to, Nash, a guy who refused to job tons of times for no rhyme or reason other than he didn't want to.

[screech]

lol what the hell

[DAMN iNATOR]

It's fascinating when we get to see CyNick interact with some of the old guard who haven't posted here in a while...I wonder how long Mr. CSL will keep at him before he realizes what the rest of us already know about CyNick being very set in his opinions.

[CSL]

haha so your gimmick is "talking head from the Monday Night Wars on WWE Network", gotcha

[The CyNick]

Originally Posted by CSL haha so your gimmick is "talking head from the Monday Night Wars on WWE Network", gotcha

I've been saying the same thing for years. Long before WWE Network.

I believe when it first happened, I was on Bret's side. When I watched his doc, and started reading more first hand accounts, I developed the view I currently have.

But yeah, you fit in well here by not debating anything I said. Cool.

[CSL]

lol you aren't debating anything, just sticking to your points no matter what is said in terms of logic and common sense. I've spent silly amounts of time having long-winded debates on here with people over the years, it's not something I've been above doing. But you don't actually have anything to say

[The CyNick]

Originally Posted by CSL lol you aren't debating anything, just sticking to your points no matter what is said in terms of logic and common sense. I've spent silly amounts of time having long-winded debates on here with people over the years, it's not something I've been above doing. But you don't actually have anything to say

Unfortunate

[Damian Rey]

Think the road to to Wrestlemania just started, and csl just won the Rumble.

[The CyNick]

Originally Posted by Damian Rey Think the road to to Wrestlemania just started, and csl just won the Rumble.

I feel like I was put in my place

[KIRA]

Explain Eugine
and mocking JRs Bells Palsy....WHILE PUSHING THE B A STAR CAMPAIGN.

[The CyNick]

Originally Posted by KIRA Explain Eugine and mocking JRs Bells Palsy....WHILE PUSHING THE B A STAR CAMPAIGN.

I may have been out of the loop on the making fun of JR. If they did, I think it's in poor taste, and isn't conducive of maximizing TV rights fees.

Eugene wad a character I didn't personally like, but he was positioned high on the card, and for a while there, people were into it. So I had no problem with it.

[Rammsteinmad]

Then explain Smackdown's shitty rating.

[The CyNick]

Originally Posted by Rammsteinmad Then explain Smackdown's shitty rating.

On Thanksgiving???

Likely had to do with throwing out the script Jim Cornette, Mick Foley, and Dave Meltzer worked on together. If only they would listen! !!! WWE could actually turn a profit. Oh well.

[Rammsteinmad]

Originally Posted by The CyNick On Thanksgiving??? Likely had to do with throwing out the script Jim Cornette, Mick Foley, and Dave Meltzer worked on together. If only they would listen! !!! WWE could actually turn a profit. Oh well.

Great job on not really explaining anything.

[The CyNick]

Originally Posted by Rammsteinmad Great job on not really explaining anything.

Ratings:

Thanksgiving is a national holiday celebrated in Canada and the United States as a day of giving thanks for the blessing of the harvest and of the preceeding year. Thanksgiving is celebrated on the second Monday of October in Canada and on the fourth Thursday of November in the United States.

The part about Cornette:

The Tongue-in-cheek figure of speech is used to imply that a statement or other production is humorously or otherwise not seriously intended, and it should not be taken at face value.

[Rammsteinmad]

Originally Posted by The CyNick Ratings: Thanksgiving is a national holiday celebrated in Canada and the United States as a day of giving thanks for the blessing of the harvest and of the preceeding year. Thanksgiving is celebrated on the second Monday of October in Canada and on the fourth Thursday of November in the United States. The part about Cornette: The Tongue-in-cheek figure of speech is used to imply that a statement or other production is humorously or otherwise not seriously intended, and it should not be taken at face value.

Ok thanks. Still doesn't explain why Smackdown is so shitty but hey never mind the last few posts have summed up this thread anyway.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

gonna piggyback off of what csl said as its been what we've been saying for some time, but with a bit more of his trademark cuntiness.

[The CyNick]

Originally Posted by Gorgeous Dale Newstead gonna piggyback off of what csl said as its been what we've been saying for some time, but with a bit more of his trademark cuntiness.

Dale, don't lower yourself to CSL's level. You at least debate a point (majority of the time). CSL made a bunch of points, which I retorted, and then rather than making a counterpoint he goes "you're just sticking to your point". Well maybe if someone brings a point that causes me to change my position, I might. And it's not like he was flexible on his position either.

If the idea is "there's no point of presenting differing opinions because it's all been said before", then this message board would be pretty dull (think how it was before I made my much heralded return). Maybe a guy like CSL comes to a message board for the ads, I don't know.

Don't be the guy who is willing to take the count out loss. If you have a position at least have the gumption to defend it.

[CSL]

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

MWAH