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Old 04-28-2008, 03:32 AM   #1
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Michaels/Batista at Backlash (spoilers)
Great match at Backlash. The crowd were really into it. This could be in part to the build up, where they've consistently built it, show after show, on Raws and Smackdown. It's mostly down to the fact that Shawn Michaels once again carried a big man to a good match. One of the best I've seen Batista in...they really told a story out there.

Not sure really what having Jericho in there was all about.

But they've built it perfectly. In this era where Raw/Smackdown have four(ish) shows to build to a PPV, they've used both brands to build it up show after show. For me, that's compelling enough reason to end the brand split.

Thoughts?

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Old 04-28-2008, 03:38 AM   #2
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HBK could pull an amazing match out of anyone. Don't really see what the big deal about this one is.
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Old 04-28-2008, 03:45 AM   #3
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HBK vs. Bastion Booger tomorrow night would probably still be at least four stars.
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Old 04-28-2008, 03:52 AM   #4
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HBK vs. Bastion Booger tomorrow night would probably still be at least four stars.
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Old 04-28-2008, 07:21 AM   #5
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Just seen it, was hbk legit injured at the end?
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Old 04-28-2008, 08:01 AM   #6
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Just seen it, was hbk legit injured at the end?
Was wondering that myself. Needing 3 refs to walk to the back, and knowing that he has pre-existing problems with his knees kinda makes me think it was. I really hope not though, he hasn't even been back a year yet
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Old 04-28-2008, 09:23 AM   #7
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I'd say it was definately legit.

Looked to me that the intended spot was for him to spring from Batista's shoulders and nail a SCM straight away but his knee buckled so they had to change the finish ever so slightly.

Hopefully it's not too bad of an injury...but, as Skull said, he has had knee problems before.
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Old 04-28-2008, 09:29 AM   #8
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I kinda got the impression HBK was faking the knee injury (in kayfabe of course) to get one over on Batista. Possible heel-ish antics.
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Old 04-28-2008, 10:08 AM   #9
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Yeah, I've been questioning Jericho being in this match. I think they wanted to put him somewhere but didn't want to try to hard.
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Old 04-28-2008, 10:41 AM   #10
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I think they just realized he wasn't in a match and had to put him somewhere n the card.
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Old 04-28-2008, 12:20 PM   #11
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I honestly think there was a plan for Jericho after the match, to have some sort of interaction with HBK, and the knee injury put a hold on that. I don't really think it was a fake-out to catch Batista off-guard, because if that was the case, he wouldn't have been selling it after the match. It'd have been more like a spring up "hah! got ya!"

I really hope Jericho comes out of this with something though. He really has a lot more potential than being a guest ref on a PPV. However, to say he added nothing to the feud is missing a few key points. This is probably the most efficient use of having multiple shows they have done in a long time to build a single feud. It was probably also one of the better builds for a PPV match I've seen in years. But to completely count Jericho out of any part of that, would be selling him short. When using both shows, you can only have so many "interview" segments with HBK and Batista in each other's face before what they're saying becomes repetitive. I think that Jericho having his own interview segments with each of them separately, not only gave them a different approach to getting their message out, but also each of them snapping on Jericho gave it a feel of importance to both people involved in the match.

Either way, I was really hoping for a Jericho/HBK program springing from this, but if HBK is gonna be out for his knee again, that kills all hope.
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Old 04-28-2008, 12:28 PM   #12
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Michaels is amazing, and Batista is not a quadraplegic. This being a good match was virtually a lock.
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Old 04-28-2008, 12:34 PM   #13
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Batista can have good matches with the best. He and Taker had a great series of matches, as did him and HHH, so a fued with HBK will surely produce a handful of great matches.
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Old 04-28-2008, 12:38 PM   #14
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I believe when people are saying "Chris Jericho can have a great match with anyone," they really mean to say, "Shawn Micheals can have a great match with anyone." Or really any praise directed at Jericho is meant for Micheals.
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Old 04-28-2008, 12:40 PM   #15
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I thought I was one of the only TPWW'ers who liked Batista .

I mean he's by no means amazing. But I like him in the main-event scene and he's certainly a credible main-eventer. I was thinking what it would be like if Cena, Orton and Batista began their WWE careers in 97-98, I honestly believe Batista would be main-eventing by 99-00 and Cena/Orton would be stuck in the midcard at least till the boom period was over.
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Old 04-28-2008, 12:55 PM   #16
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Hard to say what happened there at the end. The fact that he was still able to his SCM tells me that it probably wasn't that bad; maybe just tweaked it a little bit. JR and King didn't sound convincing however, and lead me to believe its a total work. I guess we'll see.
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Old 04-28-2008, 01:00 PM   #17
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I thought I was one of the only TPWW'ers who liked Batista .
Well my opinion is directly opposite to Alienoid's, so I might or might not.
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Old 04-28-2008, 01:01 PM   #18
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Jericho is suffering what a lot of guys seem to be going through. It can only be answered by the necessity to do a fucking draft as soon as possible. I mean, they really don't have any fueds or programmes to protect right now.

After Backlash, which is kind of intended to dust off any questions from Mania, must be considered the perfect time.
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Old 04-28-2008, 01:11 PM   #19
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Jericho is suffering what a lot of guys seem to be going through. It can only be answered by the necessity to do a fucking draft as soon as possible.
Or it could be answered by Jericho giving a shit, putting effort into it, and being as entertaining as he was 5 years ago.

Granted, it's not a total cure for what ails him, but it's a fucking start. I understand he left wrestling because he was burned out, but it seems like he came back before his burnout ended. Yeah, I know, his biggest fans will argue otherwise...Whatever.

People always say "draft," or "End the roster split," or whatever, but these are bandaids, not solutions. The wrestlers are lazy, he writers are yesmen, and the management are retards/
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Old 04-28-2008, 01:25 PM   #20
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I believe when people are saying "Chris Jericho can have a great match with anyone," they really mean to say, "Shawn Micheals can have a great match with anyone." Or really any praise directed at Jericho is meant for Micheals.
No one cares what you believe. I love how its always the same old 3 people bashing jericho though, btw.
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Old 04-28-2008, 01:32 PM   #21
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Which is fair, because it's always the same five people blowing Jericho.
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Old 04-28-2008, 01:40 PM   #22
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'Supporting him' would've been a better choice of words. And nah, i think there's more than 5 jericho fans on here.
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Old 04-28-2008, 02:07 PM   #23
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Or it could be answered by Jericho giving a shit, putting effort into it, and being as entertaining as he was 5 years ago.

Granted, it's not a total cure for what ails him, but it's a fucking start. I understand he left wrestling because he was burned out, but it seems like he came back before his burnout ended. Yeah, I know, his biggest fans will argue otherwise...Whatever.

People always say "draft," or "End the roster split," or whatever, but these are bandaids, not solutions. The wrestlers are lazy, he writers are yesmen, and the management are retards/
You know I agree with you on Jericho. But, on the other hand I thought he was very good at KOTR and his mic-work has been only surpassed on an entertainment level by Adamle recently. Just horrible booking.

If they are going to use him as a pawn to build a singles fued, he isn't even in. He is always going to struggle. But to use a good talker is a good idea in essence. So why not, if he isn't fueding, put him on Colour Comm's on one of the shows and just have him do what he does so well, do the Highlight Reel as well, and that allows an easy catylist to a fued with anyone at some point.

Before I hear 'but your taking the best wrestler out of the ring, etc...' His wrestling is sure as fuck doing nothing for him right now, and he really isn't makng others look great and putting people over, so it really doesn't matter. I'm not saying to do this as a permanent thing, just while the product is a little dry, and he has no programme to work, why not have 2 hours of Y2J on the mic every week?


As far as the draft. The Wrestlers, writers and management aren't going to change their ways. It goes without saying. Might as well put the shit in a different order though. They will get a good week's television out of it, and we can remain bored with that sliiiiiiiiight twist of originality.
I
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Old 04-28-2008, 02:09 PM   #24
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I would probably quit bashing Jericho if you would quit acting like I just insulted your father and groped your mother.
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Old 04-28-2008, 03:02 PM   #25
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I believe when people are saying "Chris Jericho can have a great match with anyone," they really mean to say, "Shawn Micheals can have a great match with anyone." Or really any praise directed at Jericho is meant for Micheals.
When Jericho gets the amount of high profile matches Shawn Michaels does then we can have this discussion but while Jericho is in lower tier feuds and matches that last 10 minutes Michaels is main eventing and having 20 minute plus matches. Both guys don't have the same oppurtunity. So lets get off of the Jericho hate, because it's not based on him it's based on your perception of how most perseve him.
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Old 04-28-2008, 03:06 PM   #26
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When Jericho gets the amount of high profile matches Shawn Michaels does then we can have this discussion but while Jericho is in lower tier feuds and matches that last 10 minutes Michaels is main eventing and having 20 minute plus matches. Both guys don't have the same oppurtunity. So lets get off of the Jericho hate, because it's not based on him it's based on your perception of how most perseve him.
OMG take a chill pill. Anyhow Micheals is having 4 star matches with Batista while Jericho is struggling to get a 3 star match out of CM Punk.
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Old 04-28-2008, 03:36 PM   #27
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BDC, would you feel differently if Jericho was part of the Kliq?

Also, do you hate him because of his bad history with said Kliq?
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Old 04-28-2008, 03:44 PM   #28
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Fox you bring up an interesting question. But I mostly don't like Jericho because he got lazy.
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Old 04-28-2008, 04:00 PM   #29
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For anyone waiting for me jump into this, I'm really not going to. Partly because I don't entirely disagree. Jericho hasn't done much, and isn't comparable with what he was doing 5 years ago. But, he is hardly the problem with wrestling. His work has been fine since returning, and he's still above most of the pack.
The problem is the system and what he's working with, and less than thrilling television and talent as a whole.
However, it should be better.
I think it's a mix of a) him not being as hungry and motivated and b) him not having as much to work with.
He's been in two fueds, both of which were short lived.
He needs a program and he needs freedom, and then it's up to him. That's where laziness or the lack thereof would come in
I think he's an example of a guy who is hampered greatly by the new age of scripted promos, watered down storylines and fueds, and limited safestyle wrestling
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Old 04-28-2008, 04:07 PM   #30
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What I'm saying, which will essentially be construed as an excuse, is that if Jericho was given a real fued and the freedom to do what he's proven he can do, he'd be doing it. In the current situation, it's just not going to happen.

This goes for everyone. Everything is bland and awful. Some do better than others regardless. I'd say he's one of them

If you put him in stale storylines and instruct him to go out and do highlight reels to build other peoples fueds, and wrestle throw away 5 minute matches and talk about what the writers give him on a sheet, he will do just that.
It will be bland if whats given to him is bland, and he can do as much as anyone can with that, which seems to be above average for the current times, but still bland as fuck. Especially compared to his work in the attitude era for both big companies.

It doesn't absolve him entirely, and essentially yes it is an excuse but it's mostly out of his hands. You can't give someone a paint by numbers and expect them to create something new and exciting

If he's given an open mic and a lenghty fued, with time in matches, he may not be the same as he was 5-10 years ago, but he will deliver on a similar level.

It's a bit of a cop out, but you're all right. I think the truth is somewhere in between all your arguments
Last edited by Jeritron; 04-28-2008 at 04:10 PM.
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Old 04-28-2008, 04:17 PM   #31
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Thank you Jeritron. That is what I have been saying, mostly. Jericho can have good matches and promos when he wants, he hasn't lately. Which means one of 2 things. Either he has gotten lazy or he has lost a step.

This whole he doesn't have good people to work with is kind of a cop out and a vicious circle kind of thing too. He doesn't have anywhere to go, anyone good to work with so he doesn't try as hard. Because he isn't trying he isn't putting on the match or spitting out the promos expected of him. Because he isn't doing what is expected of him he is pushed to the back burner and they don't focus on giving him good people or angles to work with.

Now we can point finger and bicker amoungst ourselves all day about who is to blame for starting this cycle, but I think the obivous fix for the cycle is for Jericho to activly put out better matches and cut better promo and start politic in the back. He should have knocked all that ring rust off by now and found his groove. He can't wait for them to hand him something good, he has to go out and make what he has good.
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Old 04-28-2008, 04:21 PM   #32
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The fucking brand split is not going to end, it works, they make 2 and a half time as much money learn to live with it buddy.
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Old 04-28-2008, 04:27 PM   #33
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Keep in mind the lack of creative freedom involved here though. I stick by the system being a huge handicap. A guy like Cena fits within the system, and works his ass off too, because it's how he's always done things. A guy like Jericho or Foley doesn't fit within the current system and I think it hampers their workrate and makes them not have to work as hard. They're more improv than scripted

It's no secret that Hunter gets more freedom than Jericho, despite both deserving to not be a part of the scripted system

I think if he could be having 5 star matches out there, he would. But I don't completely clear him of any failure. He has had some good ones since coming back, in which he was given the oppurtunity to have good ones. He hasn't gotten that oppurtunity much.

But for instance, he got that oppurtunity last monday and he and CM Punk both sucked. I don't know what caused it but it's only their fault. If it was Jericho slacking there, then he was lazy. If it was Punk slacking, Jericho should have carried him better and vice versa. If it was both of them slacking, which it looked like, then it's both of their faults.
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Old 04-28-2008, 04:28 PM   #34
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And I guess I've jumped into this, but I'm not going to either end in a polarized debate because I think anyone who says jericho is just as good as he was 10 years ago isn't watching the same material as I am from either era.

The argument is whose fault it all is, and I say not all his.
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Old 04-28-2008, 04:56 PM   #35
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He is always going to look more impressive as a cruiserweight in a wrestling company, than a beefed up mid-heavy in the soap opera company. It's obvious.

He is as much restricted as he is lazy. Anybody seen him in a house show recently? Lets be honest, thats where he is going to be putting on 15-20 minute matches.
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Old 04-28-2008, 05:30 PM   #36
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Even the writing staff are not high on him. I like jericho, but I'll be honest. I couldn't give a fuck if he disappeared off my screen... how could I? I don't even notice he's on. That's how much I feel he's gone down hill. - He's had plenty of time btw to construct even a worthwhile chuckle from his once legendary promos.

Get this right before some fuck argues. I don't HATE him. I just couldn't even give a fuck about him anymore. Money not well spent by Vince if he's on a hot salary as reported.
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Old 04-28-2008, 07:10 PM   #37
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'Supporting him' would've been a better choice of words. And nah, i think there's more than 5 jericho fans on here.
Since a couple of the people who "bash" Jericho are fans, yes. The problem being, you're tyring to rephrase the statement in a way that structures my argument differently than I had actually stated it. And TerranRich probably has a major chubby right now, because I'm about to point out that this makes it a strawman argument.
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Old 04-28-2008, 07:14 PM   #38
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Quote:
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Even the writing staff are not high on him. I like jericho, but I'll be honest. I couldn't give a fuck if he disappeared off my screen... how could I? I don't even notice he's on. That's how much I feel he's gone down hill. - He's had plenty of time btw to construct even a worthwhile chuckle from his once legendary promos.

Get this right before some fuck argues. I don't HATE him. I just couldn't even give a fuck about him anymore. Money not well spent by Vince if he's on a hot salary as reported.
That's the crux of the matter.

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Keep in mind the lack of creative freedom involved here though. I stick by the system being a huge handicap. A guy like Cena fits within the system, and works his ass off too, because it's how he's always done things. A guy like Jericho or Foley doesn't fit within the current system and I think it hampers their workrate and makes them not have to work as hard. They're more improv than scripted

It's no secret that Hunter gets more freedom than Jericho, despite both deserving to not be a part of the scripted system

I think if he could be having 5 star matches out there, he would. But I don't completely clear him of any failure. He has had some good ones since coming back, in which he was given the oppurtunity to have good ones. He hasn't gotten that oppurtunity much.

But for instance, he got that oppurtunity last monday and he and CM Punk both sucked. I don't know what caused it but it's only their fault. If it was Jericho slacking there, then he was lazy. If it was Punk slacking, Jericho should have carried him better and vice versa. If it was both of them slacking, which it looked like, then it's both of their faults.

I don't know so much about it being about lack of freedom, though. Even close to his retirement, he was putting on good matches and cutting good promos, and he was better than he's been of late. While it's not impossible they cracked down on him even more, it seems unlikely, especially with the fanfare under which they brought him back.
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Old 04-28-2008, 08:02 PM   #39
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Which is fair, because it's always the same five people blowing Jericho.
Six......

Or were you already including me?
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Old 04-28-2008, 08:06 PM   #40
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I don't remember you blowing him, though I did count you as a fan.
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