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#1 |
The People's Member
Posts: 18,092
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Can somebody explain the significance of this event? I understand the details of what happened, that it was poorly set up, that 96 people died, the people vs. police atmosphere, etc. But still, it feels like this event that was 20 years ago is still very emotional to a lot of people and almost that it has been heavily romanticized now.
I don't want or mean to take any significance away from it, but it's hard for me to understand why 20 years later people are still so emotional about it. Is it the 96 people who died, is it the lack of closure from the police, is it because that was kind of the end of an era for terraces, the nostalgia? I see the 96 deaths as a tragedy, but for some reason the way it is talked about and reported about in England is almost 9/11-like here. The whole "I remember what I was doing when I heard Bambi's mother died" type thing. You'd think with all the violence and problems that went on with football in the 80s that something terrible happening wouldn't be the shock to the system that it was. Of course I know this is a significant anniversary this year, but I've thought the same in the past as well. Dont Mess With Kids Last edited by BCWWF; 04-16-2009 at 10:43 AM. |
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#2 |
Rt Hon Ed Balls MP
Posts: 9,004
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Because 20 years on no one has been brought to justice for it yet.
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#3 |
The People's Member
Posts: 18,092
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Who do you bring to justice, the organizers or the police for not doing enough or what? Just from an outsiders perspective, the event seemed to be the result of fairly common trends among football supporters of the day. Not blaming the supporters as it seems they didn't do anything wrong in this case, but the whole overcrowding issue and the police not believing the fans etc.
I guess, just what kind of justice is everybody looking for? Not asking in a combative way, just wondering. Was this not just a freak incident that could just as easily have happened at any football ground in the country given the conditions of the day? And had something like this not had happened, would people have been likely to accept he changes that came soon after? |
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#4 |
Rt Hon Ed Balls MP
Posts: 9,004
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The Police failed to organise the event properly which caused the whole thing. They then lied and attempted to cover the whole thing up and blame it on fans being drunk.
They claimed fans had broken gates and forced their way in, when the Police had ordered them to be opened and then not checked if people had tickets. They claimed the crush was caused by drunk fans and that the majority of fans were drunk when there was no evidence to support this and the crush was caused by the police not directing people into the side pens. |
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#5 |
I'm all there is
Posts: 31,811
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I didn't even know this happened until I read about it this morning. Wow, what a tragedy. What a way to die. I am trying to picture it in my head though cause I can't grasp how 96 people were crushed like that. Like could they not even move or go over the wall. I need a visual.
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#6 |
VG + Q&A FORUM REPRESENT
Posts: 38,940
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They were caged in.
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#7 |
VG + Q&A FORUM REPRESENT
Posts: 38,940
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The Liverpool fans were blamed by the police and some parts of the media at first. Then it came out that it wasn't them to blame at all.
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#8 | |
VG + Q&A FORUM REPRESENT
Posts: 38,940
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#9 | |
The People's Member
Posts: 18,092
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#10 | |
The People's Member
Posts: 18,092
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Is it more just a closure thing? Or you want people brought to justice? I understand that people would be upset when this happens and details of it are covered up, but it just seems like 20 years later changes have been made so a similar situation could never happen again. Again, not trying to offend anybody, mainly just playing devils advocate and trying to fully understand the mindset. |
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#11 |
VALENTÍA
Posts: 11,988
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![]() The Sun still doesn't sell in Liverpool to this day. |
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#12 |
Posts: 743
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They also made a documentary drama about it about 15years ago which had some "celebrities" in it, people like Christopher Ecclestone and Ricky Tomlinson.
It was on BBC3 a few days ago, but no one told me so i missed it. I seen it a few years ago but wanted to watch it again. http://www.veoh.com/browse/videos/ca...972342TqHTGyMh Careful of the images to the side of it though, they're NSFW [ ![]() |
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#13 | |
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Quite long but very good account of the day.
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#14 | |
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#15 | |
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#16 | |
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#17 |
The People's Member
Posts: 18,092
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All of these stories are truly gripping.
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#18 | |
Rt Hon Ed Balls MP
Posts: 9,004
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The two pens directly behind the goal at Hillsborough got over crowded, the people at the front were pushed from behind right up against the steel fences and the people at the back had no idea what was going on at the front. At the very beginning the police saw people trying to climb the fences and kicking gates open but they thought people were trying to invade the pitch to get to the Nottingham Forest fans, so the police actually shoved fans away from the gates and shut them back in. The police then went and formed a corden across the centre of the pitch to stop the Liverpool fans attacking the Nottingham Forest fans...meanwhile the Liverpool fans were actually being crushed to death. A few people escaped by climbing the fences, but they were designed to keep people off the pitch, so that wasn't as easy as it sounds. Also the sheer number of people in the pen made movement nearly impossible. Other fans were lifted up to the top tier. ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
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#19 |
The People's Member
Posts: 18,092
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![]() This is the most telling picture I've seen so far. You can barely tell that they are crowded in the far-away shots and CCTV footage. |
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#20 | |
Over Like Rover
Posts: 38,444
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#21 |
I'm all there is
Posts: 31,811
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#22 |
King of Love and Piss
Posts: 62,991
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Where these people trying to see Peyton Manning play?
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#23 |
I'm all there is
Posts: 31,811
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and that was a good read Ogen. I didn't read all of it, just the first two posts.
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#24 |
Posts: 16,220
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Its just the one article btw just too big to put in one post.
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#25 |
▒▓▀▄WINNER▄▀▓▒
Posts: 5,070
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I was alive then, like 6 or something, but was talking today about it at work. I don't think people of my generation and after will fully get to grips with how bad a tragedy this was, we won't fully understand as the people who understood it when it happened.
Kinda like Princess Diana. The people who lived through it, hearing it for the first time, seeing the pictures following it up on TV live as they broke the story and all the outpouring of emotion at the time and shortly after. You know it's a big tragedy but compared to those who where able to understand and get a full grasp of how much national hurt there was bout it. It's just a pity it takes something like this to unite football fans, and even then u still get young knobs who are just fucking clueless and as above, don't understand any of it who still use it as a mocking ground. But then, that may sound contradicting as I have dark humour myself (i.e. Jade Goody death jokes, but then I hate her). Also the Sun are fucking stupid. That is possibly their darkest hour and I say possibly as I don't know if there is anything worse than that for a headline that they have ever done. For me personally, it is their worst. |
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#26 |
Rt Hon Ed Balls MP
Posts: 9,004
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![]() ![]() Some people were literally dead on their feet. Crushed to death but unable to even collapse. |
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#27 |
Tîm Defaid
Posts: 6,646
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Damn never seen pictures like this before. I remember a story my dad told me of when he was in his late teens I think watching a Wales v Scotland play off game at the Racecourse in Wrexham and he had to leave before the end because he couldn't breathe and was getting crushed against the barrier. It went to extra time and he heard the Scotland winning goal from outside the stadium.
Obviously nothing like Hillsborough but just gives you an idea of how it was back then, and a tragedy like this one day was probably inevitable. Shame it had to take 96 lives until action was taken. Yeah I know there were too many in there than should have been, but even still. Terraced standing for top flight football just can't be safe. |
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#28 |
Posts: 16,220
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Well terraced stadiums can be perfectly safe if done right like they do in Germany.
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#29 |
Tîm Defaid
Posts: 6,646
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Yeah I know they do it in places like Germany, but I dunno. All top flight stadiums in the world should be all seating IMO. I mean, it could appear safe, but at the end of the day you can't control a crowd surge during a goal or something.
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#30 |
Triple A
Posts: 48,551
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What makes it all worse is that to this day people like to be ignorant to what actually happened in order to call it all a big scouse sob story.
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#31 | |
Posts: 16,220
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I remember years ago being at a Dublin GAA match in Croke Park on Hill 16 which is a terraced area behind one of the goals that holds about 14,000 standing and there being a bit of a surge when we scored, ended up about 6 or 7 rows down with quite a few other people was quite scary really I suppose though I was a bit pissed and didn't really realise how bad it possibly could have been. |
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#32 |
Posts: 743
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/m...de/8006744.stm
Had a feeling this was coming any day now, but once these files are opened [If it goes ahead] what can happen then? Any prosecutions, or just "closure" on the matter finally? |
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#33 |
Triple A
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The aim isn't to prosecute anyone, there were (to my knowledge) no criminal acts committed which led up to the disaster. It was gross negligence.
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#34 |
Triple A
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The only criminal charges you'd probably see with this kinda thing would perhaps be Corporate Manslaughter on the part of the Police Force, however that offence wasn't even created until very recently so that won't come up either.
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#35 | |
adjective noun
Posts: 30,417
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I remember when Bresciano scored for Australia in the playoff v Uruguay I ended up about 5 or 6 rows down Last edited by toxic rooster; 04-19-2009 at 10:30 AM. |
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#36 | |
The People's Member
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As for terraces, I'm not sure if pointing to successful methods in Germany proves anything about what it would be like in England. The English don't exactly have a great reputation when it comes to football fans. |
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#37 |
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Well the Germans have made it foolproof really. Won't happen in England because of the history but could be easily gone safely.
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#38 |
Mad
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You should only be able to sell a certain amount of tickets to a certain stadium. It seems greed and a lack of standards (Which I'm sure have been corrected in the last 20 years) were unfortunately the issues here.
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#39 |
adjective noun
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The attendance wasn't particuarly higher than any other game at Hillsborough though. It's not like the entire stadium was overcrowded. The problem was too many people trying to get into the 2 middle pens at that end, and not being directed away by police and stewards who should have been there saying 'pens are full, go to the others'. If you look at some of the wide shots you'll see the 2 pens either side of the affected ones aren't nearly as crowded.
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#40 |
adjective noun
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![]() This is what I mean. Look at the 2 side pens; not nearly as crowded as the middle ones where the deaths occurred. |
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