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Old 06-26-2009, 09:20 AM   #1
GD
 
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I don't like it
...when a former WWE Champion or a World Heavyweight Champion wins the World Heavyweight title or the WWE title respectively. A few talents I consider to have made successful transitions include Edge and HHH. I can't see Batista as the WWE Champion or Jeff and Cena as the World Champion.
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Old 06-26-2009, 09:24 AM   #2
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Que?
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Old 06-26-2009, 09:24 AM   #3
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Where's the problem?
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Old 06-26-2009, 09:24 AM   #4
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The Mackem got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)The Mackem got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)The Mackem got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)The Mackem got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)The Mackem got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)The Mackem got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)The Mackem got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)The Mackem got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)The Mackem got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)The Mackem got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)The Mackem got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)The Mackem got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)
Does it keep you awake at night?
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Old 06-26-2009, 09:26 AM   #5
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The belts lose their unique identities.
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Old 06-26-2009, 09:27 AM   #6
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Nope, I'm still not getting it
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Old 06-26-2009, 09:30 AM   #7
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The Mackem got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)The Mackem got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)The Mackem got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)The Mackem got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)The Mackem got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)The Mackem got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)The Mackem got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)The Mackem got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)The Mackem got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)The Mackem got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)The Mackem got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)The Mackem got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)
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Old 06-26-2009, 09:31 AM   #8
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When you look back you remember Austin and the Rock as multi time WWF Champions. Although Rock had 2 reigns as the WCW/World Champion.
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Old 06-26-2009, 09:33 AM   #9
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The Mackem got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)The Mackem got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)The Mackem got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)The Mackem got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)The Mackem got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)The Mackem got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)The Mackem got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)The Mackem got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)The Mackem got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)The Mackem got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)The Mackem got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)The Mackem got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)
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Old 06-26-2009, 09:34 AM   #10
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In case of Flair, you remember him with the NWA belt and the Big Gold belt. The WWF belt seems forgettable over here.
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Old 06-26-2009, 09:34 AM   #11
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The Mackem got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)The Mackem got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)The Mackem got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)The Mackem got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)The Mackem got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)The Mackem got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)The Mackem got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)The Mackem got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)The Mackem got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)The Mackem got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)The Mackem got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)The Mackem got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)
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Old 06-26-2009, 09:38 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guru Dave View Post
The belts lose their unique identities.
They had unique identities?
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Old 06-26-2009, 10:07 AM   #13
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The Spinner belt did!
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Old 06-26-2009, 11:48 AM   #14
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Noid post request. He understands me.
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Old 06-26-2009, 11:54 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diesel Mac View Post
The Spinner belt did!
Yes, but the one that inspired it was...

Anyone remember that piece of awesomeness?
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Old 06-26-2009, 12:13 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guru Dave View Post
Noid post request. He understands me.
That should be a wake up call in and of itself.
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Old 06-26-2009, 01:37 PM   #17
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Not sure I see the problem.
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Old 06-26-2009, 01:54 PM   #18
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Never mind guys.
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Old 06-26-2009, 03:15 PM   #19
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I think I get what you are saying...even though you're not saying it very well.

I think you're talking about associating the belt(s) with particular people or perhaps moreso certain people with whichever belt.

For instance, until his brief reign as WWE Champ, Batista has always been chasing or holding the World Heavyweight Championship. Where as Cena has always been the WWE Champion or being chasing that belt. And thus they become associated with each title.

I agree that it was a little odd to see Cena with the "Big Gold Belt" after he won it - especially as the current design of the WWE Title was made specifically for him.

I think you're losing people when you talk about "successful transitions" from one title to another.
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Old 06-26-2009, 03:33 PM   #20
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Yeah, I get what he's trying to say.

Best example I can think of is that HHH was synonymous with the big gold belt for the longest time. When he won the WWE title, he looked weird with it.

Actually, pretty much every non-John Cena person looks weird with the WWE Title.
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Old 06-26-2009, 04:01 PM   #21
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I just hate having two major world titles period. And I'm pretty sure I'm the first person to have ever said that in the history of ever.

But it needed to be said. There is no major title anymore. They both mean nothing to me so whoever can have whatever title. I don't care.
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Old 06-26-2009, 04:09 PM   #22
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I agree.

But I am also of the opinion that the WWE Title still means more than the WHC. For instance, I would much rather have seen Hardy win the WHC before he won the WWE Title.

I guess it could be put down to these 2 factors:

1) I was a WWF fan as a kid. I used to watch WCW when they had Worldwide on a Saturday afternoon on ITV over here in the UK but I was always a WWF kid. To me WCW was a poor man's WWF.

2) The way the belt was created and then given to HHH and only has a lineage of 7 or so years.
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Old 06-26-2009, 04:15 PM   #23
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I'm the opposite XL, I think the WHC has more prestige than the WWE title.
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Old 06-26-2009, 06:14 PM   #24
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Would you care to explain why?
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Old 06-26-2009, 06:28 PM   #25
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I just think the WHC has more prestige than the WWE championship because the belt has looked the way its looked for a while. The new WWE belt needs a makeover. And...thats basically it.
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Old 06-26-2009, 06:43 PM   #26
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No.
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Old 06-26-2009, 07:00 PM   #27
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Just the fact that we have to have discussions about what title means the most in WWE is ridiculous. There should be one top guy and this discussion should not be necessary.
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Old 06-26-2009, 08:30 PM   #28
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According to lineage (beating the man to become the man), both titles have a pretty good argument. It depends on which of the titles comprising the bigger titles you value more. It cannot be denied, however, that the WWE Title is comprised of the main titles of the three major companies we all grew up watching.

The WWE Championship is not only the lineal championship of the WWE/WWF but also the lineal championship of WCW (since it's last champion, Booker T in WCW, was defeated for it in the WWF and it continued to change hands until being unified with the WWE Title) as well as being the title that the NWA had back for many decades. The belt also has the lineage of the old WCW International World Heavyweight Championship.

It should be noted, however, that the World Heavyweight Championship has the lineage of the WCW United States Championship, the WWF Intercontinental Championship, the WWF European Championship and the WWF Hardcore Championship. At Survivor Series 2001 Edge unified the Intercontinental and US championships. In July and August of 2002 RVD unified the Intercontinental Title with the European and Hardcore titles. Finally, at No Mercy 2002, Triple H beat Kane for the Intercontinental Title.

It's funny that when Ultimo Dragon won all his belts in one pop he carried around all the titles but no one acknowledges the fact that Randy Orton is carrying around the WWF, WCW and NWA belts and CM Punk is carrying around the World Heavyweight, Intercontinental, European, US and WWE Hardcore Titles all at once.
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Old 06-26-2009, 08:33 PM   #29
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Old 06-26-2009, 09:17 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Lock Jaw View Post

Actually, pretty much every non-John Cena person looks weird with the WWE Title.
Except this guy:



"And look, Paul! It spins!"
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Old 06-26-2009, 09:23 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Lock Jaw View Post
Yeah, I get what he's trying to say.

Best example I can think of is that HHH was synonymous with the big gold belt for the longest time. When he won the WWE title, he looked weird with it.

Actually, pretty much every non-John Cena person looks weird with the WWE Title.
Edge looked cool...

I feel dirty saying that, but I disagree.
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Old 06-26-2009, 10:47 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Guru Dave View Post
Noid post request. He understands me.
I absolutely do get where you are coming from, but I cannot fully agree. The point you are making is that you don't like it when guys go from winning the WWE Title to the World Heavyweight Title, and vice versa, right? I do agree with that, as it makes the brand fabrics appear weaker, and I do agree that the World Titles should be given their own identity.

For example, the WWE Title should be considered the richest prize in the company. It's been the title held by Bruno Sammartino, Andre the Giant, Hulk Hogan, Ric Flair, Stone Cold Steve Austin and The Rock. It's the belt with the "history." I'm more inclined to think that the World Heavyweight Championship should be about carving history. It's got the prestige of physically being held by the best of the business, back when it housed the WCW Title and NWA Title, but their lineages are completely unrelated. Younger guys, who careers started from about 2003 onwards should be much more interested in this belt than guys who came into the WWE in the 90's, looking to win the WWE Title.

It sort of annoys me when a wrestler says it has been their lifelong dream to win the World Heavyweight Title, when the belt hasn't even been around as long as many of those challenging for it. But, I do not mind it when wrestlers win both. I just wish a bigger deal was made out of it.

Instead of putting Batista's WWE Title win at Extreme Rules as his fifth World Title, they should have put it over as his first WWE Title win. It's something very different for Batista, and a massive landmark in his career. It just gets washed over like it's another day in his life.

John Cena winning his first World Heavyweight Title after several WWE Title reigns could have been a pretty big deal if the WWE had built it up for a WrestleMania, or something. It could have been a chance to start afresh with the guy. Instead, they just give him a random match against Chris Jericho at Survivor Series, and Cena wins the WHT in an understated moment, and Jericho's reign has the legs cut out from under him.

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Originally Posted by midLfinger View Post
It's funny that when Ultimo Dragon won all his belts in one pop he carried around all the titles but no one acknowledges the fact that Randy Orton is carrying around the WWF, WCW and NWA belts and CM Punk is carrying around the World Heavyweight, Intercontinental, European, US and WWE Hardcore Titles all at once.
That's because they're not. While the WCW Title belt design was used for the NWA World Heavyweight Title, the NWA Title is a completely separate lineage, and is still alive today. The NWA Title was the centrepiece of TNA Wrestling for years, and then flirted with ROH before doing whatever it is now. Last time I checked the reigning NWA Champion was Blue Demon, Jr.; not Randy Orton.

Ultimo Dragon looked impressive carrying around all those titles, but that was an optical illusion. Give a guy that many belts, and he looks like he's won a lot. Give a guy one belt, even if their are two World Title lineages fused in there, and it doesn't look, optically, as impressive. Especially when the belt looks like a piece of shit.

As for the World Heavyweight Title -- yes, it was unified with the Intercontinental Title, which had absorbed the United States Championship, European Championship and Hardcore Championship -- but we have since seen the re-installment of the IC Title and US Titles. They are no longer part of the World Heavyweight Championship as anything more than a memory. Also, I'd make the case that the European and Hardcore Titles were unified with the IC Title, so therefore those titles are more closely tied to the active IC Title on SmackDown! than the World Heavyweight Title heading the brand.
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Old 06-27-2009, 02:16 PM   #33
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Noid: I'm referring to actual lineage.

The NWA title was the WCW title. After breaking from the NWA, WCW kept the title and the champion (therefore, the lineage). The NWA would go on to start a new NWA title (which, ironically, Shane Douglas won and then threw to the ground to start ECW). The NWA title that was in TNA was started in the mid-90s after another tournament and is a lesser title, in my opinion, than the X-Division belt.

The WCW title was abandoned when Flair left to WWF and a new WCW title was created. Eventually, when WCW bought a new belt that looked just like Flair's, the titles were unified.

The whole reason for WCW keeping the belt is because they had paid for it and they weren't just gonna give it to the NWA after paying to make a new one because Flair wouldn't give them the one he paid for.

The new one they created did have a new lineage and doesn't count as the original that Flair had but that point is mute since, upon returning to WCW, Flair won this new belt anyway.

Additionally, the World Heavyweight Championship still has the old lineages (although, WWE doesn't express this for promotion reasons) of the IC, Euro, US and Hardcore belts. They were never separated through means of a match. You can't just say, "whoever was champion, at that point, is no longer champion." WWE's distorting of lineages by starting new belts is equivalent to what the NWA did back in the mid-90s with their belts or what WWE did by creating the WHC.
Last edited by midLfinger; 06-27-2009 at 07:19 PM.
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Old 06-27-2009, 02:21 PM   #34
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I get what you mean, but I really can't differentiate between both belts at all. I dont know who is what champion anymore. If there was a WWE Raw Champion and a WWE Smackdown Champion that were exclusive to that show I would be able to know the difference. When they start appearing on the same show or the champion gets drafted to another show it completely looses everything to me.
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Old 06-27-2009, 08:55 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by midLfinger View Post
Noid: I'm referring to actual lineage.

The NWA title was the WCW title. After breaking from the NWA, WCW kept the title and the champion (therefore, the lineage). The NWA would go on to start a new NWA title (which, ironically, Shane Douglas won and then threw to the ground to start ECW). The NWA title that was in TNA was started in the mid-90s after another tournament and is a lesser title, in my opinion, than the X-Division belt.

The WCW title was abandoned when Flair left to WWF and a new WCW title was created. Eventually, when WCW bought a new belt that looked just like Flair's, the titles were unified.

The whole reason for WCW keeping the belt is because they had paid for it and they weren't just gonna give it to the NWA after paying to make a new one because Flair wouldn't give them the one he paid for.

The new one they created did have a new lineage and doesn't count as the original that Flair had but that point is mute since, upon returning to WCW, Flair won this new belt anyway.

Additionally, the World Heavyweight Championship still has the old lineages (although, WWE doesn't express this for promotion reasons) of the IC, Euro, US and Hardcore belts. They were never separated through means of a match. You can't just say, "whoever was champion, at that point, is no longer champion." WWE's distorting of lineages by starting new belts is equivalent to what the NWA did back in the mid-90s with their belts or what WWE did by creating the WHC.
You're a cool poster, but I'm sorry, that's just not how it works.
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Old 06-27-2009, 08:58 PM   #36
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The WCW title does not date back to the NWA title. You can argue it was split (the NWA title still existed after WCW took over) but it does not hold the lineage.

The NWA title was in Japan for a bit in 92, so no, it wasn't the same title.

By your logic the ECW title holds the lineage of the NWA title. It doesn't.
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Old 06-27-2009, 09:02 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xero View Post
The WCW title does not date back to the NWA title. You can argue it was split (the NWA title still existed after WCW took over) but it does not hold the lineage.

By your logic the ECW title holds the lineage of the NWA title. It doesn't.
Exactly.

It'd be like me letting a friend drive my car. He borrows it, returns the car and the keys the next day, but then tells everyone it is his car -- even though he never drives it again.
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Old 06-28-2009, 01:36 PM   #38
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Noid: You're absolutely right. That's not how it works. If that were how it worked then we wouldn't even be having a discussion about who is the true champion because it'd be obvious but, unfortunately, things go screwy with WWE and title lineages. I mean, a few years ago they were still trying to give the WHC the WCW titles lineage so it could mean something.

Xero: I don't see how either of your points are true. I'm not saying you're wrong. I am, of course, trying to draw these things from memory so there's good potential that I'm missing something you remember.

In the early 90s, WCW was in the process of phasing out the NWA name (although still a member of the NWA). Ric Flair, the NWA World Heavyweight Champion (at the time wrestling in WCW), left WCW with the championship (they had already started calling it the WCW championship on TV but it was still the NWA title as WCW was still part of the NWA).

Ric Flair won the WWF title. You can argue that Flair was, in fact, the first undisputed champion. I won't argue that but I could see how one could argue that.

Flair was stripped of the NWA/WCW title but would not return the belt. WCW purchased a new belt that was identical to the belt Flair had.

While Flair was in WWF, WCW had a tournament for the NWA title. Masahiro Chono won the tournament. This created a problem of sorts for lineage because it meant that two people could rightfully claim that they are the NWA champion.

The problem was resolved, however, because Chono dropped the title to Muta who dropped it to Barry Windham who lost it back to Ric Flair after Flair returned to WCW.

Two months after Flair won the championship the WCW and NWA parted ways. It was not a happy seperation and WCW chose to create a faux-NWA organization called WCW International and renamed Flair's WCW championship the WCW International World Heavyweight Championship.

Say what you will about NWA having the right to the name of its title but you cannot refute that the belt Ric Flair was holding was in the same lineage of the belt that all the NWA champions before him competed over. He directly won it from Barry Windham, never lost it and NWA can only force him to change the name of the title. WCW did not strip him of the title. As a matter of fact, I'm sure many people have heard Tony Schiavone or Mike Tenay say on WCW broadcasts that the history of the WCW championship is over a hundred years old, illustrating that, to WCW, the title had the same lineage of the NWA title.

Finally, WCW also created WCW World Heavyweight Championship, in addition to the WCW International WHC, which was unified with the WCW International WHC (and the NWA lineage) at Clash of the Champions XXVII. The belt retained the look of the WCW International World Heavyweight Championship (Big Gold Belt) which WCW obviously saw as having a greater and more prestigious lineage.

I don't understand how ECW could possibly hold the lineage of the NWA title. Shane Douglas won a brand new NWA title (with absolutely no lineage) and threw it to the ground. He relinquished the title. Since he voluntarily said he didn't want to be champion than he is not the champion. It's like when a wrestler retires. They don't stay champion forever. Whoever gets the title next is the new champion.

Noid: Actually, it'd be like me letting my friend drive my car, called the Pimpmobile, after he gave me a thousand dollars so that he could drive it until he lost some sort of "mackin' ho's" competition to someone. This could be a tradition that I have with all the greatest pimps in the history of "mackin' ho's." If you were a great pimp, you have, at some point, had the rights to drive the Pimpmobile so all the ladies recognize that that car equals greatness in the field of "mackin' ho's." He borrows it and a few days later I tell him that he can't drive the Pimpmobile anymore (even though he hasn't lost the rights via competition) but refuse to give him his money back. I take him to court and the judge says that he hasn't lost the rights to the car so I have to pay him for it if I want it but he cannot legally call it the Pimpmobile because I own the rights to that name. He starts calling it the Pimpwagon and I buy a new, but much less attractive, car and call it the Pimpmobile and hold a "mackin' ho's" competition to declare a new driver to the Pimpmobile. But the guy who wins is a much lower pimp than the guy who has my car, the much lower pimp who just won the car decides to wipe his ass with the car's pink slip and no one even recognizes this as a "sweet ride."

Sorry for that extremely long comparison but that's just how tangled up that mess was in '93.
Last edited by midLfinger; 06-28-2009 at 01:56 PM.
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Old 06-28-2009, 10:22 PM   #39
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Quote:
Actually, it'd be like me letting my friend drive my car, called the Pimpmobile, after he gave me a thousand dollars so that he could drive it until he lost some sort of "mackin' ho's" competition to someone. This could be a tradition that I have with all the greatest pimps in the history of "mackin' ho's." If you were a great pimp, you have, at some point, had the rights to drive the Pimpmobile so all the ladies recognize that that car equals greatness in the field of "mackin' ho's." He borrows it and a few days later I tell him that he can't drive the Pimpmobile anymore (even though he hasn't lost the rights via competition) but refuse to give him his money back. I take him to court and the judge says that he hasn't lost the rights to the car so I have to pay him for it if I want it but he cannot legally call it the Pimpmobile because I own the rights to that name. He starts calling it the Pimpwagon and I buy a new, but much less attractive, car and call it the Pimpmobile and hold a "mackin' ho's" competition to declare a new driver to the Pimpmobile. But the guy who wins is a much lower pimp than the guy who has my car, the much lower pimp who just won the car decides to wipe his ass with the car's pink slip and no one even recognizes this as a "sweet ride."
This is the greatest thing ever written.
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Old 06-28-2009, 10:22 PM   #40
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Theo Dious got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)Theo Dious got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)Theo Dious got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)Theo Dious got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)Theo Dious got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)Theo Dious got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)Theo Dious got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)Theo Dious got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)Theo Dious got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)Theo Dious got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)Theo Dious got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)Theo Dious got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)
Im not actually saying it wins the argument because Im not even thinking about that. It was just a GREAT thing to write.
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