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Old 02-10-2009, 10:42 PM   #41
Hanso Amore
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anybody Thrilla View Post
I'm not going to say that Hanso is COMPLETELY right, but he's pretty much right.
You dont have to love trannies.

But you have to admit that Chavo minus an Eddie Death was on his way out. had EG made it 6 more months, Chavo would have been in TNA by that point.
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Old 02-10-2009, 10:44 PM   #42
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Chavo does not fit into Legacy because he is 40, and he is not a young upstart.

Why would a 40 year old loser take the tutelage of a 28 year old guy with the hopes of making his future brighter, he has none.

Also, had Vickie not taken the job as GM, Chavo would have been gone long ago too.
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Old 02-11-2009, 12:16 AM   #43
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I'm still not sure why Chavo would work in the Legacy, or why it should be suggested beyond "if we arbitrarily place him somewhere, maybe he'll succeed by association."
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Old 02-11-2009, 08:06 AM   #44
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Oh, and Noid, Chavo didnt save the WM title match by coming out for Rey.

Eddie Did.

People need to learn to strip Eddies Memory and death away from Chavo and see him for he really is.
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Old 02-11-2009, 08:18 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox View Post
"Orton gave opportunities to them"? You know this stuff is scripted, right? That the decisions of who will be in a group and who won't are not made by Randy Orton and Co.?

I'm saying that visually speaking, Chavo Guerrero is a square peg in a circular hole when it comes to joining Legacy. He does not fit the crew. A guy like DH Smith, on the other hand, fits in beautifully: he is new, he is second gen, and he's a big, muscular white guy with a particular look. Chavo is well known by wrestling fans and has been for many years. Orton, DiBiase and Rhodes are all relatively new, as were their try-outs Manu and Snuka.

And I believe that the writers of the show realize that as well.
Now you're making a little bit of sense, not going with the whole racist stuff. What the fuck was that about, Fox?

Visually, I don't think Chavo is as far-cry from the group as you're making him out to be. The guy can be a snappy dresser, and you'd just have to tweak his attitude slightly, and I could see him fitting in really well. Maybe you can't, but that's just where we have to disagree.

What I gather Legacy is about:

* Second or third generation wrestlers who want to become greater than their fathers or grandfathers.

To me, the common thread that guys like Randy Orton, Ted DiBiase & Cody Rhodes share (in a kayfabe sense), is that they grew up in the business, and have some sort of unnatural ambition. If Chavo got sick of Vickie Guerrero and Edge treating him like shit, and he decided to push Vickie's wheelchair off the stage, or something, and he went over to RAW via ECW, I could see no reason that Chavo's ambition could not help him fit in with the group.

You don't want every member to be identical, anyway. There has to be some separation between them, or no one will stand out.
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Old 02-11-2009, 08:20 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanso View Post
Oh, and Noid, Chavo didnt save the WM title match by coming out for Rey.

Eddie Did.

People need to learn to strip Eddies Memory and death away from Chavo and see him for he really is.
Perhaps, but people did that just fine for Rey Mysterio.
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Old 02-11-2009, 08:28 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanso View Post
Chavo does not fit into Legacy because he is 40, and he is not a young upstart.

Why would a 40 year old loser take the tutelage of a 28 year old guy with the hopes of making his future brighter, he has none.

Also, had Vickie not taken the job as GM, Chavo would have been gone long ago too.
Maybe I missed it, but has the groundwork for the Legacy stable actually been laid out to say "We are only young guys." I don't see how his age would prevent him from being a Legacy wrestler. It looked like the WWE were going to put Sim Snuka in the group for a while, and he is also in his mid-to-late forties.

Chavo Guerrero would not take tutelage from Orton, so much as simply become an enabler to his success. Chavo Guerrero adds decades more experience to the group, while sticking to their guidelines, and welcoming in a wrestler who doesn't pose an immediate threat to Orton. With Chavo officially a member of the ECW roster, Chavo would sort of be removed from the group. He'd be more an adviser to Randy Orton, than anything. Cody Rhodes & Ted DiBiase would be instructed to learn what they could from him.

I'd rather see Chavo switch gears and become the crafty veteran he could be booked as, instead of the stupid goon he currently plays. If you've got the guy on the payroll, you might as well use him to best effect.

By the way, personally, I'd rather see Chavo remain on SmackDown! as a face, and not join Legacy. I just do not see what is so "weird" about Chavo joining the group. He is a third generation wrestler from an iconic wrestling family, who could very easily declare that he wants to be greater than his father, uncle or grandfather.
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Old 02-11-2009, 08:50 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Optimist View Post
With what though? Randy's already got two young athletic goons. Chavo's a good wrestler, and an ECW Champion but he's not hired-gun material.

The only way I could see it coming anywhere near that direction is if Edge and Randy had some sort of talent-trade between Legacy and . . . whatever Edge has going for him besides Chavo.
I wouldn't use him as a hired gun within the group. I'd probably lean more towards a "we can lot a lot from this man" type of thing. Chavo Guerrero has instructed on Tough Enough in the past, and has mentored several young guys on their way into the company (Nick Nemeth, Bam Neely and even Zack Ryder & Curt Hawkins, to a degree). Orton could see some interest in using Chavo's wrestling style to better instruct Cody Rhodes & Ted DiBiase.
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Old 02-11-2009, 10:08 AM   #49
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Shut up noid. You couldn't be any more wrong.
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Old 02-11-2009, 03:43 PM   #50
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I have very rarely been wrong in my life. About anything.
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Old 02-11-2009, 05:19 PM   #51
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Chavo and Eddie was a funny combo but he never impressed me in the ring though. Since Eddie is gone Chavo essentially became worthless. Besides his little stint as ECW Champ I don't see anything big for him anymore.
Last edited by Ben Kenobi; 02-12-2009 at 09:14 PM.
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Old 02-11-2009, 08:40 PM   #52
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It seems Chavo might be setting his sights on the US Title. Is this too high for him?
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Old 02-11-2009, 08:43 PM   #53
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I think the US Title is way too high for Chavo.
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Old 02-11-2009, 09:30 PM   #54
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When the likes of K-Kwik, Shelton, and TBK are running for the US Title, no one is to low for a run/title shot. Now when MVP gains it back and starts going at it with Kennedy, then you have a point.
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Old 02-11-2009, 11:36 PM   #55
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I think Chavo is going to get involved in the angle with MVP and Shelton Benjamin. Two weeks ago, he wrestled MVP, and then last week tossed MVP over in the Battle Royal. I think they want to keep Chavo at around that level of credibility.
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Old 02-12-2009, 12:38 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruien View Post
When the likes of K-Kwik, Shelton, and TBK are running for the US Title, no one is to low for a run/title shot. Now when MVP gains it back and starts going at it with Kennedy, then you have a point.
Ron Killings is over with the fans with all of his flashiness (not a big fan but it works), Shelton can wrestle a great match, The Brian Kendrick can actually cut a promo, and all of them have charisma.

Chavo has none of these qualities.
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Old 02-12-2009, 12:51 AM   #57
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Maybe he can team up with Dolph Ziggler.
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Old 02-12-2009, 12:52 AM   #58
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Maybe he can team up with Dolph Ziggler.
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Old 02-12-2009, 01:45 AM   #59
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Untrue.
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Old 02-12-2009, 04:05 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by screech View Post
Ron Killings is over with the fans with all of his flashiness (not a big fan but it works), Shelton can wrestle a great match, The Brian Kendrick can actually cut a promo, and all of them have charisma.

Chavo has none of these qualities.
I'd argue that Chavo can wrestle a great match and has charisma. He may not be able to cut a great promo, but he his serviceable on the mic.
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Old 02-12-2009, 04:07 AM   #61
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Quote:
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Maybe he can team up with Dolph Ziggler.
I think the WWE has long since forgotten about their history now. Given their differences in styles, and that both men seem to be after something else right now, I don't think a team between them would work.

If Chavo ever goes back to Kerwin White, I wouldn't mind seeing a few vignettes with them at the golf course, though.
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Old 02-12-2009, 09:52 AM   #62
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Noid, this is you in this thread:
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Old 02-12-2009, 09:54 AM   #63
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BTW, just to clarify Noid, because I know you are retarded, I'm saying you are the mule, not the guy.
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Old 02-12-2009, 11:22 AM   #64
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Quote:
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I think the WWE has long since forgotten about their history now. Given their differences in styles, and that both men seem to be after something else right now, I don't think a team between them would work.

If Chavo ever goes back to Kerwin White, I wouldn't mind seeing a few vignettes with them at the golf course, though.
I'm not sure how that's any different then pairing him up with the Legacy.
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Old 02-12-2009, 11:28 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Noid View Post
I'd argue that Chavo can wrestle a great match and has charisma. He may not be able to cut a great promo, but he his serviceable on the mic.
I just don't see how he has any charisma by himself. Yes, with Eddie he was mildly entertaining, but that was mostly Eddie. As I've said in other threads, I really just can't stand watching a Chavo match (or promo for that matter). To me, how good the match is depends on his opponent.
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Old 02-12-2009, 11:44 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noid View Post
I've felt that Chavo has been doing some really good promos recently. He's not a genius on the mic, or nearly as charismatic as his uncle was, but to be honest, I truthfully believe he's much more charismatic than a lot of the WWE roster.
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Originally Posted by Noid View Post
No, I don't. Don't tell me what I do and don't think. I could rank the guys in the WWE in order of their promo abilities, and I'd put Chavo Guerrero somewhere past half-way.
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Originally Posted by Noid View Post
I'd argue that Chavo can wrestle a great match and has charisma. He may not be able to cut a great promo, but he his serviceable on the mic.
I love how through the same thread Noids opinion of Chavo the mic slips, but Noid still want to push him further than he should. Seriously, Noid see how you go from really good, to just above average, to merely servicable? I mean you literally are losing ground with ever back and forth in this thread. Why can't you just agree this is as good as Chavo is going to be for the rest of his career. Chavo is on the downward slope. He isn't useless, yet, but he isn't Legacy material.
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Old 02-12-2009, 12:03 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by screech View Post
I just don't see how he has any charisma by himself. Yes, with Eddie he was mildly entertaining, but that was mostly Eddie. As I've said in other threads, I really just can't stand watching a Chavo match (or promo for that matter). To me, how good the match is depends on his opponent.
This is a board where people were actually arguing that Edge was ME material, admitting he wasn't good in the ring, but was capable of being carried.

Chavo's probably no worse in the sense that he can play well enough with others. When working with someone who's great, he can look good.

Of course, that leads to pushing people who have no ability to really stand on their own, as opposed to personalities and talents which can be used in programs against virtually everyone.

But hey, that's what people seem towant. Guys who can be carried.
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Old 02-13-2009, 03:13 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Kane Knight View Post
I'm not sure how that's any different then pairing him up with the Legacy.
What's the point of Legacy? I ask you this, and then you'll have your answer. Asswipe.
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Old 02-13-2009, 03:17 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by BigDaddyCool View Post
I love how through the same thread Noids opinion of Chavo the mic slips, but Noid still want to push him further than he should. Seriously, Noid see how you go from really good, to just above average, to merely servicable? I mean you literally are losing ground with ever back and forth in this thread. Why can't you just agree this is as good as Chavo is going to be for the rest of his career. Chavo is on the downward slope. He isn't useless, yet, but he isn't Legacy material.
Chavo has been cutting some good promos lately. That much is true. Overall his mic skills aren't fantastic, but they're above average. And just so you know, the reason I keep playing devil's advocate with Chavo is for the sake of discussion. If you do not want to discuss, get the fuck out. Simple.
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Old 02-13-2009, 03:23 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by screech View Post
I just don't see how he has any charisma by himself. Yes, with Eddie he was mildly entertaining, but that was mostly Eddie. As I've said in other threads, I really just can't stand watching a Chavo match (or promo for that matter). To me, how good the match is depends on his opponent.
People often confuse charisma with an outgoing personality. Chavo doesn't exactly portray a party animal persona, but that doesn't mean he is without charisma.

Chavo has long been over with the WWE audience, and that is not solely Eddie's doing. Prior to Eddie's death, Chavo was still able to get the fans to boo him or cheer him according to his face/heel alignment. Granted, I would have never picked him for a future World Champion, but I'd definitely put him ahead of guys like Khali and Mark Henry on my list of preferred guys to win the big one.

I'm sensing that you just don't like Chavo. Could that be a possibility? I'm not suggesting that as a negative thing, it's your prerogative, and there are some guys that I am not particularly fond of (Jeff Hardy and Triple H come to mind), but I can admit that they are both good talents. Do you really believe that Chavo needs to be carried? I've seen Chavo do more than his fair share of carrying, is all.
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Old 02-13-2009, 03:27 AM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kane Knight View Post
This is a board where people were actually arguing that Edge was ME material, admitting he wasn't good in the ring, but was capable of being carried.

Chavo's probably no worse in the sense that he can play well enough with others. When working with someone who's great, he can look good.

Of course, that leads to pushing people who have no ability to really stand on their own, as opposed to personalities and talents which can be used in programs against virtually everyone.

But hey, that's what people seem towant. Guys who can be carried.
I don't think people ever said that Edge wasn't good in the ring. I know some people said that said he can be carried to great matches, but when working with crappy opponents, his matches can turn out pretty messy. I know I was one of them.

The thing about that, though, is that it falls equally as much on Edge's opponent as it does Edge. If Edge had a snoozer with Randy Orton, then it is just as much Orton's fault as it is Edge's.

Sure, the ideal wrestler would be able to have a good match with everyone; but just how many of those guys are there out there? Triple H can't fucking do it. Shawn Michaels is one that a lot of people will throw out there, but he's had some borefests, too. The thing is, if every one of your top talents can work with the best talents to produce great matches, and that your top talents are your best talents, there's no real problem with pushing a guy who can't get a great showing out of Gene Snitsky.
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Old 02-13-2009, 09:16 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noid View Post
Chavo has been cutting some good promos lately. That much is true. Overall his mic skills aren't fantastic, but they're above average. And just so you know, the reason I keep playing devil's advocate with Chavo is for the sake of discussion. If you do not want to discuss, get the fuck out. Simple.
You are playing devil's advocate for the sake of discussion? You do realize that "devil's advocate" means you disagree with the position, but are just doing it to continue an argument? So there for you are saying you just wanted to argue about how Chavo needs to be in a hire position without believing it?

If that is true, then no one in this thread thinks Chavo needs to move up? So therefore thread is over.
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Old 02-13-2009, 10:06 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noid View Post
People often confuse charisma with an outgoing personality. Chavo doesn't exactly portray a party animal persona, but that doesn't mean he is without charisma.

Chavo has long been over with the WWE audience, and that is not solely Eddie's doing. Prior to Eddie's death, Chavo was still able to get the fans to boo him or cheer him according to his face/heel alignment. Granted, I would have never picked him for a future World Champion, but I'd definitely put him ahead of guys like Khali and Mark Henry on my list of preferred guys to win the big one.

I'm sensing that you just don't like Chavo. Could that be a possibility? I'm not suggesting that as a negative thing, it's your prerogative, and there are some guys that I am not particularly fond of (Jeff Hardy and Triple H come to mind), but I can admit that they are both good talents. Do you really believe that Chavo needs to be carried? I've seen Chavo do more than his fair share of carrying, is all.
To me, Chavo has always been "Eddie Guerrero's nephew" rather than just Chavo. So that cheering/booing has seemed by association in a sense. When he was with Eddie (face or heel), the reaction were because of Eddie. He joined La Familia, the reactions are/were because of Edge and Vickie. Even when he does the Three Amigos, he gets booed instead of cheered now. At first, it was seen as a tribute because he dropped Kerwin White and was featured prominently as "Eddie's nephew." Now, since he's teamed with heels and they're getting heat, he is getting heat also. That's just how I've seen, and still see, Chavo. The only time he's really been his own "character" I guess is Kerwin White (which I liked).

You are correct, sir. I do not like Chavo at all. The matches I've seen of his were good depending on his opponent (as I said before). I just don't think Chavo is very good on his own. More often than not, I see him as needing to be carried in matches and through feuds (CM Punk comes to mind right away).
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Old 02-13-2009, 10:15 AM   #74
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Also, it has been said before, but Chavo's entire move set is a homage to someone. Even his super crappy looking frog splash is a double homage, as he is paying tribute to Eddie, and Eddie was paying tribute to Art Barr.
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Old 02-13-2009, 10:56 AM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noid View Post
What's the point of Legacy? I ask you this, and then you'll have your answer. Asswipe.
Notice how defensive you get?

The "point" of the legacy is to promote up and comers WWE has faith in. It doesn't really matter that they don't specifically say "no old guys allowed" on TV. Chavo would readily be an albatross around the neck of the group.
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Old 02-15-2009, 02:40 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by BigDaddyCool View Post
You are playing devil's advocate for the sake of discussion? You do realize that "devil's advocate" means you disagree with the position, but are just doing it to continue an argument? So there for you are saying you just wanted to argue about how Chavo needs to be in a hire position without believing it?

If that is true, then no one in this thread thinks Chavo needs to move up? So therefore thread is over.
Not neccessarily. Devil's advocate doesn't mean you disagree with the position. It just means you are arguing for the sake of argument. I am just looking for someone to actually discuss the pros and cons of Chavo's upside in the WWE. Personally, I think it is greater than what people are giving him credit for.

I haven't neccessarily completely disagree with what people have been saying about Chavo, though. I get that he doesn't ooze that "it" factor. I do think that a lot of what I am discussing, mainly with screech, is subjective, though.
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Old 02-15-2009, 02:44 AM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDaddyCool View Post
Also, it has been said before, but Chavo's entire move set is a homage to someone. Even his super crappy looking frog splash is a double homage, as he is paying tribute to Eddie, and Eddie was paying tribute to Art Barr.
I agree that Chavo does a really crappy Frog Splash. He's always had a problem with it, for some reason, which is a bit weird, because a Frog Splash seems really easy to do. I don't see how it being a double tribute to Art Barr and Eddie Guerrero is a bad thing, though.

Chavo needs to go back to using moves that worked for him, and let someone else do the Frog Splash now. It's a perfectly fine move for someone like Christian to use. Or to give someone from FCW so they don't have to use a neckbreaker to try and get over with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kane Knight View Post
Notice how defensive you get?

The "point" of the legacy is to promote up and comers WWE has faith in. It doesn't really matter that they don't specifically say "no old guys allowed" on TV. Chavo would readily be an albatross around the neck of the group.
Calling you an "asswipe" isn't defensive. That's being honest and forthcoming.

That is a good point you made about Legacy. Does that mean they have to be exclusively for young guys. Chavo could easily serve as an experienced "fixer" for the group, to ensure that they have someone at ringside to aid them in winning. He can be there as an "I wish there was a movement like this when I was coming up in the business" sort of justification for the group.

Just because the goal of the group is to put over young second or third generation stars, doesn't mean that they cannot associate at all with an older third generation star.
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Old 02-15-2009, 02:53 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by screech View Post
To me, Chavo has always been "Eddie Guerrero's nephew" rather than just Chavo. So that cheering/booing has seemed by association in a sense. When he was with Eddie (face or heel), the reaction were because of Eddie. He joined La Familia, the reactions are/were because of Edge and Vickie. Even when he does the Three Amigos, he gets booed instead of cheered now. At first, it was seen as a tribute because he dropped Kerwin White and was featured prominently as "Eddie's nephew." Now, since he's teamed with heels and they're getting heat, he is getting heat also. That's just how I've seen, and still see, Chavo. The only time he's really been his own "character" I guess is Kerwin White (which I liked).

You are correct, sir. I do not like Chavo at all. The matches I've seen of his were good depending on his opponent (as I said before). I just don't think Chavo is very good on his own. More often than not, I see him as needing to be carried in matches and through feuds (CM Punk comes to mind right away).
Thank you for actually discussing this.

Your views aren't without logic, but I do not quite agree. While being "Eddie Guerrero's nephew" has certainly helped him. With longetivity and the number of opportunities he has been given, to say the least, I do not think that can be attributed as the sole source of Chavo's heat. Zack Ryder & Curt Hawkins were also aligned with Vickie Guerrero and Edge, but I don't remember them getting nearly as much heat as Chavo consistently gets.

Sure, being Eddie's nephew probably heightens that, but it's not something that Chavo can help, and I don't think it should be held against him. Being multi-generation stars didn't exactly help Sim Snuka and Manu instantly set the world on fire, so I don't think it is something that is a sure-fire thing. Chavo has had to work at his connection with the fans, I believe.

I want to ask you if you think your opinion of Chavo Guerrero's abilities may be biased? I'm not accusing you of that, but purely asking for a self-reflection of whether or not you think it is possible. I can't remember the last time I saw a bad match out of Chavo Guerrero, is all.
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Old 02-15-2009, 03:19 PM   #79
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No, by defintion, Devil's Advocate means taking the position you disagree with to further a debate/conversation, look it up.
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Old 02-17-2009, 09:38 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by Noid View Post
Thank you for actually discussing this.

Your views aren't without logic, but I do not quite agree. While being "Eddie Guerrero's nephew" has certainly helped him. With longetivity and the number of opportunities he has been given, to say the least, I do not think that can be attributed as the sole source of Chavo's heat. Zack Ryder & Curt Hawkins were also aligned with Vickie Guerrero and Edge, but I don't remember them getting nearly as much heat as Chavo consistently gets.
I really think being seen as "Eddie's nephew" (and Vickie's) hurts him now. While Eddie was alive, Chavo was seen as trying to be like him, and paying tribute after his death. Now though, he's still seen as a nephew and he is doing heel things, so his tributes to Eddie generate heat rather than cheers. Hawkins and Ryder basically came out of nowhere, and people just wondered what exactly their role was other than being Edge's lackeys. (And they never seemed to try to get rid of that association.) The difference with Chavo is that he is trying to not be seen as a nephew, and it isn't working.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noid View Post
Sure, being Eddie's nephew probably heightens that, but it's not something that Chavo can help, and I don't think it should be held against him. Being multi-generation stars didn't exactly help Sim Snuka and Manu instantly set the world on fire, so I don't think it is something that is a sure-fire thing. Chavo has had to work at his connection with the fans, I believe.
It shouldn't be held against him, but again, his efforts to "get away" from that are coming up short. I agree, he has to work on his connection with the fans, because to me it's not there at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noid View Post
I want to ask you if you think your opinion of Chavo Guerrero's abilities may be biased? I'm not accusing you of that, but purely asking for a self-reflection of whether or not you think it is possible. I can't remember the last time I saw a bad match out of Chavo Guerrero, is all.
Maybe they are biased. I really dislike Chavo. Again, his good matches have been because of his opponents to me. I have never been entertained by anything Chavo has done. His stuff with Eddie was entertaining because of Eddie, not Chavo.

Apologies for the delay, I went away for the weekend.
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