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Old 02-28-2010, 01:37 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loose Cannon View Post
to me that's an opinion though. and I'm not going to take anything away from your opinion, but while you may think Christian was under used (and I do too) somebody like Steele doesn't.

While as when you talk financial stuff, there's actual numbers to back it up.

But yea, I'll agree that the WWE has failed at using certain guys to thier fullest potential, but somebody can easily argue that
I'm totally with you Loose Cannon. I never claimed this was any more than opinion. But I can back up my opinion, and thats all I care that anyone does. As long as you back up your opinion intelligently that's all that matters.

James Steele is a smart poster because he backs up his opinion, just as you are, and any number of people on here. Just because I state a diffrent opinion doesn't mean I think anything less of your opinion. I just disagree, and that's what makes this fun.
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Old 02-28-2010, 01:37 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by screech View Post
Should people really have expected him to be ready for that role at the time, though? He was given the ball during the "Triple H Era" on RAW (not a knock, as I love Trips). Could anyone really have been expected to come out over "that" Triple H (especially with that kind of character)?
Hmmm...they had Orton win the belt and turn babyface. As a babyface, he had a dominant heel stable going after him. He couldn't get over as a babyface even with all the sympathy in the world. Orton proved he wasn't ready to be champion, and thats why he dropped it at Unforgiven and didn't win the title again for years.
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Old 02-28-2010, 01:42 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by TheAdamEvansFan View Post
Was Chris Benoit a failure at life? Yes.

REALLY?

The whole Chris Benoit Murder/Suicide was a cover up. Don't even get us started on that...
Please explain.
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Old 02-28-2010, 01:43 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Steele View Post
Hmmm...they had Orton win the belt and turn babyface. As a babyface, he had a dominant heel stable going after him. He couldn't get over as a babyface even with all the sympathy in the world. Orton proved he wasn't ready to be champion, and thats why he dropped it at Unforgiven and didn't win the title again for years.
If all that is true, which I'll agree to that to a point, then it was the WWE's failure to utalize their talent properly. If they were good at utalizing talent they would have known that Randy Orton wasn't ready to with the title and shouldn't have given him the belt.

If the WWE pushed Randy Orton to the title and he wasn't ready than the WWE failed along with Randy Orton. It's just logic.

It can't be one or the other, it has to be both.
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Old 02-28-2010, 01:45 PM   #45
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His failure to get over wasn't completely his fault, though. Orton can't be bought as a face who panders to the fans or ducks and runs from the big bad heels. That's not his fault. Had he been given a face persona more fitting (like wanting to take down Evolution rather than trying to "outsmart The Game," for example) the results probably would have been different.

Every guy won't work as the same type of character (an issue in WWE with many faces lately). Is that the talent's fault? To a degree, yes. But the characters could be molded to fit the worker and the angle. This would be better than just trying the same mold with different guys, hoping it will work one of these times, to maximize potential.
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Old 02-28-2010, 01:48 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Show Off View Post
If all that is true, which I'll agree to that to a point, then it was the WWE's failure to utalize their talent properly. If they were good at utalizing talent they would have known that Randy Orton wasn't ready to with the title and shouldn't have given him the belt.

If the WWE pushed Randy Orton to the title and he wasn't ready than the WWE failed along with Randy Orton. It's just logic.

It can't be one or the other, it has to be both.
This. You can't hang failure of a character solely on the worker. WWE is as much to blame for not realizing what works with some can't work with all.
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Old 02-28-2010, 01:49 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by James Steele View Post
Also in regards to Carlito and RVD, do you think WWE might have given them more if they both didn't constantly bitch and moan and bury the company?
That's true. The WWE for far too long have been more worried about what wrestlers do in the locker room than what they do in the ring. I totally agree with that assessment.

But if the WWE were so damn concerned with wrestlers being good "company guys" then why push a repeat flake a drug addict in Jeff Hardy to the moon?
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Old 02-28-2010, 01:57 PM   #48
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Old 02-28-2010, 01:59 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by screech View Post
This. You can't hang failure of a character solely on the worker. WWE is as much to blame for not realizing what works with some can't work with all.
My point is that Randy Orton has most of the blame in his failures.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Show Off View Post
That's true. The WWE for far too long have been more worried about what wrestlers do in the locker room than what they do in the ring. I totally agree with that assessment.

But if the WWE were so damn concerned with wrestlers being good "company guys" then why push a repeat flake a drug addict in Jeff Hardy to the moon?
Jeff Hardy never buried the company in public appearances such as radio interviews. Jeff Hardy was also one of the most over guys in the company at that time on a brand that needed help. The WWE does need to worry about what goes in the locker room, since you are same person who will say WWE worries too much about the locker room but will crucify WWE when a wrestler ODs or dies from his own stupidity.
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Old 02-28-2010, 02:13 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Steele View Post
My point is that Randy Orton has most of the blame in his failures.
Even in this example? You can't agree that WWE is just as much at fault? I understand his behavior outside the ring screwed him, and if that's what you're referring to I agree, but in this case I don't buy it.

It seems like your disdain for Orton is the driving force behind your opinion here, in which case that statement is ridiculous.
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Old 02-28-2010, 02:15 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by screech View Post
Even in this example? You can't agree that WWE is just as much at fault? I understand his behavior outside the ring screwed him, and if that's what you're referring to I agree, but in this case I don't buy it.

It seems like your disdain for Orton is the driving force behind your opinion here, in which case that statement is ridiculous.
WWE does have some blame for putting a guy who wasn't ready into that situation, but at the end of the day they put their faith in Randy Orton and Randy didn't even seem to try and make it work. I guess Randy thought his daddy and grandfather would make it work for him, just like everything else in his career.
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Old 02-28-2010, 02:23 PM   #52
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There was definitely fault on both sides. He couldn't work with what he was given (his fault), but he also was given a persona that really didn't work for him (WWE). Could he have done more to try to make it work? Probably, but really with that character he couldn't have made that much better than it was IMO.
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Old 02-28-2010, 04:09 PM   #53
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On this whole Orton`s face turn subject: the white meat babyface doesn`t really work anymore in a post Steve Austin world. Babbies need an edge now. There are so many examples of it its rediculous.
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Old 02-28-2010, 04:22 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Steele View Post
My point is that Randy Orton has most of the blame in his failures.



Jeff Hardy never buried the company in public appearances such as radio interviews. Jeff Hardy was also one of the most over guys in the company at that time on a brand that needed help. The WWE does need to worry about what goes in the locker room, since you are same person who will say WWE worries too much about the locker room but will crucify WWE when a wrestler ODs or dies from his own stupidity.
I've never held the WWE accountable for wrestlers ODing. Never once. Don't put words in my mouth.
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Old 02-28-2010, 04:30 PM   #55
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it's both deal with it Destor
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Old 02-28-2010, 04:33 PM   #56
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and my post stated that. but it also stated that you`re a faggot or a ginger.
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Old 02-28-2010, 05:36 PM   #57
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Old 02-28-2010, 05:37 PM   #58
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Old 02-28-2010, 05:39 PM   #59
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Old 02-28-2010, 05:42 PM   #60
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Old 02-28-2010, 05:43 PM   #61
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Old 02-28-2010, 06:00 PM   #62
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Old 02-28-2010, 06:16 PM   #63
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I think we're also conditioned to the WWE formula of using guys.

A lot of our generations idea of a great push is working strong in the IC division for a good run while gaining popularity, winning the Royal Rumble, and going on to win the World Title at Wretlemania.
From there one, a run is established.

And this IS a good push. But it's also not the only way to make a star. We've had it done with a lot of our favorites over time, and it's even the format they use to model video games and the like after.
So I think a lot of the WWE style is burned into our opinions.

So I want to get that out of the way. The WWE way typically works, and is good, but it's not the only way.
This being said, TNA doesn't seem to find these "other ways" of establishing new stars.

Paul Heyman found new and different ways from the WWE in ECW.
The Ric Flair style worked in the late days of NWA/early WCW.

I think TNA has come close with a few guys but have yet to figure it out.

So my answer is: It's TNA's failure to use talent. They seem to closely concerned with the WWE style and WWE guys when they're not the WWE.
They're doing much better right now, though. There are a few guys who could very easily become stars in the next year or so with the growing exposure. That's up to them.
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Old 02-28-2010, 06:17 PM   #64
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Screech, do you accept Steele-Edge into your life?
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Old 02-28-2010, 06:18 PM   #65
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Old 02-28-2010, 06:18 PM   #66
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Cause that's a deal-breaker.
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Old 02-28-2010, 06:22 PM   #67
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No, but you do have to listen to "The Game" or "King of Kings" at least once a day while meditating.
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Old 02-28-2010, 06:23 PM   #68
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I do that anyway. "The Game" is actually one of my ringtones.
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Old 02-28-2010, 06:24 PM   #69
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Sweet, I work on your membership card and order your custom decoder ring.
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Old 02-28-2010, 06:25 PM   #70
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Old 02-28-2010, 06:46 PM   #71
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Everyone shut up about this stupid debate, I want to hear TheAdamEvansFan's cover up story
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Old 02-28-2010, 07:16 PM   #72
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Everyone shut up about this stupid debate, I want to hear TheAdamEvansFan's cover up story
I'm done, and ready to hear the cover up story as well.
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Old 02-28-2010, 07:20 PM   #73
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St. Jimmy got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)St. Jimmy got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)St. Jimmy got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)St. Jimmy got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)St. Jimmy got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)St. Jimmy got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)St. Jimmy got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)St. Jimmy got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)St. Jimmy got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)St. Jimmy got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)St. Jimmy got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)St. Jimmy got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)
WWE all day. TNA is just as bad as it has ever been, only I'm sure Hogan lacing up those boots up one more time will push it over the "worse" line.
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Old 02-28-2010, 07:36 PM   #74
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WWE all day. TNA is just as bad as it has ever been, only I'm sure Hogan lacing up those boots up one more time will push it over the "worse" line.
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Old 02-28-2010, 07:50 PM   #75
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St. Jimmy got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)St. Jimmy got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)St. Jimmy got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)St. Jimmy got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)St. Jimmy got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)St. Jimmy got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)St. Jimmy got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)St. Jimmy got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)St. Jimmy got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)St. Jimmy got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)St. Jimmy got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)St. Jimmy got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)
Exactly where I was going with that.
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Old 02-28-2010, 07:58 PM   #76
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I know. I just figured I'd hit it out of the park.
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Old 02-28-2010, 08:09 PM   #77
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Everyone shut up about this stupid debate, I want to hear TheAdamEvansFan's cover up story
Is he still around? He got a bunch of negative rep..
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Old 02-28-2010, 11:48 PM   #78
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[QUOTE=The Show Off;2960160] If the WWE were good at using talent Shawn Michaels, Triple H, and The Undertaker would have been putting over cleanly the following... Randy Orton, Edge, Carlito, Shelton Benjamin, and John Morrison. They haven't. It's a serious failure on WWE's part on handling talent when thew only real credible wrestlers in the company are Cena, Batista, Triple H, HBK, and 'Taker.


Why wouldnt you want HBK, HHH, and Undertaker to be your top guys? They still draw and they can still outwork alot of the younger guys.

I understand your point is there need to be young guys on top along with them and they need to put them over, but Those younger guys are just waiting in the balance.

In 1992 we would have been having this same argument saying why are guys like Shawn Michaels and Bret Hart being put over (before Hart's title win)? It's just the natural progression of wrestling and probably always will be. They squeeze every last drop they can get out of their top stars before moving the upper mid carders into their places.

There are obvious exceptions like Cena and Batista and Orton. You have to be realistic too, some guys like Carlito will never have major drawing power. They put him in a major feud with Cena right off the bat and he was terrible.
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Old 02-28-2010, 11:54 PM   #79
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I'd like them to be more keen to the fact that a guy should be a huge star before he wins the belt, rather than taking a potential huge star and expecting the belt to do the trick.

Orton could have continued what he was doing with the IC title belt for a few years and not suffered from it. Especially with the legend killer gimmick. A fued with Foley worked, and the subsequent Taker fued could have worked if he hadn't won the title yet.

I don't want to see guys like Miz and Morrison thrust into the title picture. Maybe a few shots resulting in strong showings, but not winning. They're just fine where they are right now. Let the crowd decide when they're ready
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