Wake me up when december ends

[The CyNick]

Originally Posted by SlickyTrickyDamon I think CyNick has a point though. Extreme knowledge of the behind the scenes of the product from dirt sheets hurts enjoyment. That Dolphinfan guy's predictions ruined many ppvs when people (OwenBrown) would post what he found out on threads. When Jim Cornette was working for TNA he overtly stayed away from finding out what was going to happen for a (slight) chance to enjoy the show.

Good post

[The CyNick]

Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan No one over the age of 10 who wasn't hooked on wrestling from a prior generation is tuning in now and saying "Gee. This is compelling." It's just an abysmal product. It really is, without exaggeration, probably the most poorly written thing on television. You can only stay complacent with what you've created in the past for so long before you need to actually produce something worth watching in the present again.

I think you're mixing things up.

Wrestling is and always has been a pretty basic level form of storytelling and character developmental. Even the greatest angles in the history of the business were not exactly Emmy Award winning pieces of writing. Was Vince ending up as the Higher Power more compelling than the stuff today?

I personally think the storytelling is no different today than it was 15 years ago. Triple H and Steph are the new Mr McMahon. You have the same cheesy love triangle storylines (Mero-Sable is Rusev-Lana). You have the cowardly heel champion gifted the belt (Rock was in the same spot Rollins is today). And most of those storylines have been staples in all wrestling territories.

There are several differences that cause people to percieve the current product as being not as good and the IWC faithful like to blame creative because it's the easy thing to do. When they should look closer at external factors.

First, the talent just isn't as good. In the ring, generally speaking each generation gets better in the ring. As athletes evolve they are able to do more things. If Kofi Kingston came along in 1990, he would stand out, today he's just another guy.

But the other aspects of being a sports entertainer are lost on a lot of guys. I think a lot of it has to do with the millennial generation. I think they expect creative to cultivate every aspect of their character and tell them what to say. In reality they should take ownership of the character they are given and contribute to the creative process so their character comes off more genuine. If you listen to the guys who made the serious money in this business they all talk about taking charge of their own characters. More guys should take that advice and run with it. Don't sit back and wait on the bench for your name to be called. Leave no doubt that you should be a star and if you are skilled, you will be one. Daniel Bryan is a great example of this and unfortunately he's rare in todays crop of talent. He proved he belonged at the top, and creative cultivated that.

The other problem is people remember the Attitude era fondly but in reality it was scumbag level TV. I was in my late teens during that era so it seemed cool, but looking back I would never want children exposed to the filth that was being presented on a weekly basis. At the time it was okay for WWE to present such a product because they were a solely owned company that was seen as renegade.

It wasn't a sustainable business model for the worldwide publicly traded entertainment conglomerate that the company has flourished into. Advertisers wanted no part of them, they were getting crucified in the media, nobody wanted to be associated with them. Now they are a much more mature brand, and you see the benefits of some of the cross promotional efforts that exist today. It's a product you are not afraid to watch with your children and grandparents alike. On top of that and more importantly is fiscally healthier.

The last thing is the violence. I think people have this fond memory of the late 90s because every other night you had someone risking life and limb or spilling blood to pop a rating. As a lifelong fan, i'm happier with the current toned down product. Hopefully fewer guys have concussion issues and crippling neck injuries. I can do without the off the ladder spear every month. I'd rather watch Xavier Woods play the trombone.

Once i stopped reading the sheets, I enjoyed wrestling for the same whackiness that got me hooked on it in the first place. If i find myself not enjoying a show i will stop watching. For example, I hated this past season of House of Cards. My reaction isn't to subscribe to Mave Deltzers newsletter to find out which writer had the most power last season, i'm just going to stop watching. Life is too short to waste time. If you enjoy, watch. If not, go check out anything on TLC and let me know how WWE writing stacks up.

[Sixx]

PLS STOP

[Big Vic]

Or just watch MNF like me.

[Rammsteinmad]

Jesus, no way am I reading all of that.

[EzekielKane]

Originally Posted by The CyNick I think you're mixing things up. Wrestling is and always has been a pretty basic level form of storytelling and character developmental. Even the greatest angles in the history of the business were not exactly Emmy Award winning pieces of writing. Was Vince ending up as the Higher Power more compelling than the stuff today? I personally think the storytelling is no different today than it was 15 years ago. Triple H and Steph are the new Mr McMahon. You have the same cheesy love triangle storylines (Mero-Sable is Rusev-Lana). You have the cowardly heel champion gifted the belt (Rock was in the same spot Rollins is today). And most of those storylines have been staples in all wrestling territories. There are several differences that cause people to percieve the current product as being not as good and the IWC faithful like to blame creative because it's the easy thing to do. When they should look closer at external factors. First, the talent just isn't as good. In the ring, generally speaking each generation gets better in the ring. As athletes evolve they are able to do more things. If Kofi Kingston came along in 1990, he would stand out, today he's just another guy. But the other aspects of being a sports entertainer are lost on a lot of guys. I think a lot of it has to do with the millennial generation. I think they expect creative to cultivate every aspect of their character and tell them what to say. In reality they should take ownership of the character they are given and contribute to the creative process so their character comes off more genuine. If you listen to the guys who made the serious money in this business they all talk about taking charge of their own characters. More guys should take that advice and run with it. Don't sit back and wait on the bench for your name to be called. Leave no doubt that you should be a star and if you are skilled, you will be one. Daniel Bryan is a great example of this and unfortunately he's rare in todays crop of talent. He proved he belonged at the top, and creative cultivated that. The other problem is people remember the Attitude era fondly but in reality it was scumbag level TV. I was in my late teens during that era so it seemed cool, but looking back I would never want children exposed to the filth that was being presented on a weekly basis. At the time it was okay for WWE to present such a product because they were a solely owned company that was seen as renegade. It wasn't a sustainable business model for the worldwide publicly traded entertainment conglomerate that the company has flourished into. Advertisers wanted no part of them, they were getting crucified in the media, nobody wanted to be associated with them. Now they are a much more mature brand, and you see the benefits of some of the cross promotional efforts that exist today. It's a product you are not afraid to watch with your children and grandparents alike. On top of that and more importantly is fiscally healthier. The last thing is the violence. I think people have this fond memory of the late 90s because every other night you had someone risking life and limb or spilling blood to pop a rating. As a lifelong fan, i'm happier with the current toned down product. Hopefully fewer guys have concussion issues and crippling neck injuries. I can do without the off the ladder spear every month. I'd rather watch Xavier Woods play the trombone. Once i stopped reading the sheets, I enjoyed wrestling for the same whackiness that got me hooked on it in the first place. If i find myself not enjoying a show i will stop watching. For example, I hated this past season of House of Cards. My reaction isn't to subscribe to Mave Deltzers newsletter to find out which writer had the most power last season, i'm just going to stop watching. Life is too short to waste time. If you enjoy, watch. If not, go check out anything on TLC and let me know how WWE writing stacks up.

I agree with all of this, you make some good point! The wrestling storylines we see are almost always the same in fed to fed, generation to generation. What matters is the stars acting out those storyline and OBJCTIVElY the stars of today are better in the ring...but the storylines are no longer "shocking" because its all been done before and done more hardcore in a better way.
No matter how good the wrestlers are, you will not be as entertained by a stable taking over a fed now that NWO had been done!

[Fox]

If it's the same guy, I remember reading The Cynick's weekly column here on TPWW every week back in the late 90s. But something has definitely changed because that guy actually seemed to know what he was talking about, whereas this guy hereally really seems to be lost in some kind of confused tunnel. The evidence that Daniel Bryan was not factored into the WrestleMania 30 main event until after the events of the Royal Rumble and CM Punks departure is pretty overwhelming. Punk even says it in the podcast with Colt Cabana, where he pulls no punches and basically let's it all out. Just the fact that Cynick is debating this point from an assumed stance of such confidence is pretty absurd.

Of course, he could just be messing with the lot of you.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Originally Posted by Fox Of course, he could just be messing with the lot of you.

This is what I'm hoping for, but all in the same would be kind of sad.

[Big Vic]

Originally Posted by Fox The evidence that Daniel Bryan was not factored into the WrestleMania 30 main event until after the events of the Royal Rumble and CM Punks departure is pretty overwhelming. Punk even says it in the podcast with Colt Cabana, where he pulls no punches and basically let's it all out. Just the fact that Cynick is debating this point from an assumed stance of such confidence is pretty absurd.

Oh sure a guy who hates the company says this.[/CyNick]

[The CyNick]

Originally Posted by Fox If it's the same guy, I remember reading The Cynick's weekly column here on TPWW every week back in the late 90s. But something has definitely changed because that guy actually seemed to know what he was talking about, whereas this guy hereally really seems to be lost in some kind of confused tunnel. The evidence that Daniel Bryan was not factored into the WrestleMania 30 main event until after the events of the Royal Rumble and CM Punks departure is pretty overwhelming. Punk even says it in the podcast with Colt Cabana, where he pulls no punches and basically let's it all out. Just the fact that Cynick is debating this point from an assumed stance of such confidence is pretty absurd. Of course, he could just be messing with the lot of you.

Same person. You learn things as you go.

Do you think Punk knew every booking possibility that Vince had on his desk?

[SlickyTrickyDamon]

Originally Posted by Big Vic I don't remember people cheering Rusev last year.

When he was faced Cena he got a good pop for passing Cena out.

[The CyNick]

Explain this to me.

If WWE had no intention of featuring Bryan at Mania, why did he go over Cena at Summerslam? Why take the top star in the company and have him JOB to a guy you don't see much in? Why not let them have a competitive match where Cena goes over? Then have Orton cash in MITB and proceed to the Batista v Orton payoff.

Why have Bryan get completely screwed out of the title by The Authority in the Fall? Isn't that usually a time where Mania programs start to take shape? Odd how that worked.

It possible WWE thought Batista v Orton would be a bigger attraction because Batista had been away from TV and then payoff Bryan winning back the title after Mania. But that's not how WWE usually caps off long running storylines. I think someone mentioned the rumour was Bryan vs Sheamus. And maybe that was true. But maybe the rumoured Punk v HHH match was to get Bryan into the main event. Maybe Sheamus was going to be there to just lay a beating on Bryan "in case" HHH lost to Punk.

Just seems like they blew a lot of TV time on Bryan v The Authority to just have it pay off with absolutely nothing. Interesting how the story that actually played out led into a Bats heel turn, which led to Shield v Evolution, which led to Rollins turning heel and setting up the next 18-24 months of storylines. For on the fly that's pretty good.

[Sixx]

Someone mercy kill this thread, please.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Gonna have to go against everything I believe in, and agree with Sixx.

[Maluco]

TWO WORDS: PUSH CESARO

Last night, I was asked a simple question during the Q&A part of my show in Philadelphia: "if you were in charge of ‪#‎WWE‬, what one change would you make?" I gave a simple answer. Push Cesaro. I'm not trying to create controversy or be a pain in WWE's neck - but the recent treatment of this guy on TV is downright baffling to me. Besides, as long as I said it, and it will be reported on (which I'm pretty sure it will be) you might as well read it here first. I know Steve Austin has been an enthusiastic Cesaro - WWE supporter. Maybe he needs a little bit of help. Maybe my opinion will mean something. Maybe yours will too. Tell me about your favorite Cesaro - WWE match. Give this post a like and a comment..maybe even share it - and we'll see if a few thousand comments on the Foley Facebook page (which I KNOW the WWE front-office reads) might make a difference.


This was posted by Mick Foley on his Facebook page and mentions how both he and Austin are baffled and are massive supporters of Cesaro.

Now, you are right to say that Big Show should have won on Monday when they are building up to a big show (no pun intended) with him in the main event, but guys like Foley have been around the business, Vince, booking teams, locker rooms etc... For decades. They know the business inside out and wouldn't say something stupid or ignorant that disregarded the way the business works.

Posts like this are not fanboys asking for favourite wrestlers to be pushed. These are knowledgeable professionals who are looking at what's happening on TV and saying...this isn't right.

This is just one example. There is something fundamentally wrong with WWE writing, a slew of issues, and even if they get where they need to be eventually, they are not doing it in a way that is entertaining.

[The CyNick]

Originally Posted by Maluco TWO WORDS: PUSH CESARO Last night, I was asked a simple question during the Q&A part of my show in Philadelphia: "if you were in charge of ‪#‎WWE‬, what one change would you make?" I gave a simple answer. Push Cesaro. I'm not trying to create controversy or be a pain in WWE's neck - but the recent treatment of this guy on TV is downright baffling to me. Besides, as long as I said it, and it will be reported on (which I'm pretty sure it will be) you might as well read it here first. I know Steve Austin has been an enthusiastic Cesaro - WWE supporter. Maybe he needs a little bit of help. Maybe my opinion will mean something. Maybe yours will too. Tell me about your favorite Cesaro - WWE match. Give this post a like and a comment..maybe even share it - and we'll see if a few thousand comments on the Foley Facebook page (which I KNOW the WWE front-office reads) might make a difference. This was posted by Mick Foley on his Facebook page and mentions how both he and Austin are baffled and are massive supporters of Cesaro. Now, you are right to say that Big Show should have won on Monday when they are building up to a big show (no pun intended) with him in the main event, but guys like Foley have been around the business, Vince, booking teams, locker rooms etc... For decades. They know the business inside out and wouldn't say something stupid or ignorant that disregarded the way the business works. Posts like this are not fanboys asking for favourite wrestlers to be pushed. These are knowledgeable professionals who are looking at what's happening on TV and saying...this isn't right. This is just one example. There is something fundamentally wrong with WWE writing, a slew of issues, and even if they get where they need to be eventually, they are not doing it in a way that is entertaining.

This is a classic case of overreaction.

As I mentioned previously, Cesaro is in the middle of program with Big Show. He's losing right now, because thats the logical thing to do to heat up Show, who will heat up Lesnar for his big fight with Taker. Anyone who thinks thats bad booking is just complaining to be difficult.

Now, you can argue Cesaro shouldnt be in that spot, but I think in the long run it will help him. He will go over Show at some point, mark my words. And when he does, it will be a bigger deal than if Cesaro just beat Show on some random RAW one week.

The other issue that Cesaro faces is he's not in the main event plans right now. I know some fans wish he was there, but its not his time. There are plans already in place, so in the meantime, Cesaro is prominently featured on RAW every week, and will slowly move up the card.

They had him work with Owens, and I believe that program will be picked back up at some point. The goal for Cesaro should be to capitalize on whatever programs he's in to make it crystal clear to the decision makers that he should be in the plans for main eventing Mania 33 and beyond. But he needs to work on things. Ive noticed in the last couple months, he's starting to round out an arsenal in the ring that will help him get his matches over beyond just his entrance and the swing. He needs to continue to work on the mic work. We all know thats critical. He's not at a main event level yet with that.

In time, I believe Cesaro will make it. And when he does people will claim WWE never wanted him to be a main eventer, it just sorta happened.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

big show shouldn't be wrestling Lesnar

[Damian Rey]

Batista comes back, gets a face pop, wins the Rumble, gets shit on, cuts face promos afterwards, gets shit on some more, and the main event is magically altered out of un telegraphed, outta nowhere Batista heel turn and the Bryan/Triple H stipulation added 4 weeks before Mania. Completely planned from the get go.

[The CyNick]

Originally Posted by Damian Rey Batista comes back, gets a face pop, wins the Rumble, gets shit on, cuts face promos afterwards, gets shit on some more, and the main event is magically altered out of un telegraphed, outta nowhere Batista heel turn and the Bryan/Triple H stipulation added 4 weeks before Mania. Completely planned from the get go.

So you're ignoring Summerslan-Survivor series. It's cool because it blows your argument out of the water.

It of nowhere heel turn magically turned into the main program for post Mania 30

[Damian Rey]

No it doesn't. They booked him to lose, then put him in a feud with Wyatt while they attempted to get Batista ready for the main event. He was added in as filler to the elimination chamber match and when it became glaringly obvious Batista wasn't gonna get the face pop and the fans were shitting all over him and his segments, Bryan was suddenly put into a position to main event.

Why are you arguing something the man himself has stated several times it was not the plan to put him in the main event? What reason would he have to lie? What reason would CM Punk have to lie about having a planned mania match with Triple H? What purpose would that serve?

[Damian Rey]

https://youtu.be/yhW-JvO0joo

Quotes Vince McMahon. The boss. What reason does he have t lie? To pretty much throw Vince under the bus for seemingly and willingly missing the boat on putting him in the main event?

[Wishbone]

CyNick is either the greatest troll of our generation or the most stubborn asshat. Either way it's pretty amazing to witness this whole thing unfold. History in the making folks.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

I'll give CyNick his due in that he gets us to react, after reading his posts I'm legit like this:

It's actually hilarious.

[Mr. Nerfect]

CyNick is coming off more and more like that millennial personality that thinks any attention is good attention. It's like those goofs that hop the barricade and pose, but in a pseudo-intellectual way. I wouldn't pay to see him get his ass beat in a blow-off yet though -- kind of a Bo Dallas-type heel at the moment.

[Mr. Nerfect]

The thing is Cesaro went over Big Show at WrestleMania XXX. A one-on-one match between the two would have been perfectly fine for Battleground or even SummerSlam last year, but they really messed up Cesaro's world-beater push by never having him beat anyone past Rob Van Dam at Extreme Rules -- a program that was actually cooled by RVD's random involvement.

What you're saying about Cesaro beating Big Show later actually makes sense, only that it should have already happened. Cesaro should not be the World Heavyweight Champion right now with everything that has happened in the past, but he should be in the upper mid-card that Big Show gate-keeps.

[Mr. Nerfect]

You need to reward the fans' emotional investment in something by giving them a big win occasionally, and then making that win seem like it means something. They've avoided this with not only Cesaro, but Dean Ambrose and Bray Wyatt too. Nothing they've really done recently has felt like an "event" -- an emotional "moment" you can latch onto as a fan as a frame of reference to their importance in professional wrestling. The last one for Ambrose was probably the Shield clean-sweep against Evolution at Payback.

If I were a betting man, I'd have lost so much money on the above mentioned guys, and I don't know how I'd sit my son down and tell them him that he should still believe in Cesaro or Dean Ambrose. Why would my son want the shirt of a wrestler that loses almost all of their PPV matches until they win a few then go back to losing just as you thought things were turning around?

[Outsider]

While things are far from perfect, things are still a lot better than they were a few years ago.

At least we've moved on from the attitude of just pushing every talentless giant that used to be the case and instead those who can actually wrestle seem to be getting a shot.

And they've managed to create some new stars. There is a champion at the moment who isn't Cena or Orton. That in itself should be celebrated.

Things far from perfect, and obviously what they do with Cesaro and a few others week after week is still ridiculous. But still, looking back, things could be a lot worse.

[Anybody Thrilla]

Why does it even matter if what happened at Wrestlemania 30 was the original plan? It still happened regardless, and most of us loved it. If it was planned that way, then good job by them. If not, then nice audible by them. It's not really anything to argue about.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Originally Posted by Anybody Thrilla Why does it even matter if what happened at Wrestlemania 30 was the original plan? It still happened regardless, and most of us loved it. If it was planned that way, then good job by them. If not, then nice audible by them. It's not really anything to argue about.

Similar to Bret at mania ten.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Originally Posted by Anybody Thrilla Why does it even matter if what happened at Wrestlemania 30 was the original plan? It still happened regardless, and most of us loved it. If it was planned that way, then good job by them. If not, then nice audible by them. It's not really anything to argue about.

It was a depressing time to be a Daniel Bryan fan when they illogically moved him from the title picture, and didn't include him in the 2014 Royal Rumble. It would have been even tougher to have been a Rey Mysterio fan, I think.

[Mr. Nerfect]

There is a point to be had when it comes to avoiding spoilers. That's why I don't keep up with the NXT tapings results. I get genuinely surprised when things happen in NXT. That being said, I read the SmackDown spoilers because I am not prepared to invest two hours in a show that might be entirely redundant. I also read PPV recaps before I watch, because I don't trust the WWE to not enrage my sensibilities. It's safer to read the spoilers than invest the time. Sorry, but for my sanity it is.

NXT has me. Actually, any wrestling product that could get me hooked would. But I'm not going to avoid spoilers just so I can try and convince myself to be into something. I'm not that much of a masochist.

[Damian Rey]

I try to avoid NXT spoilers, and since I can only watch the hulu version of raw, try to avoid the Raw thread. It doesn't change how I feel about Raw. It's the same 3 hours of two or three storylines with meaningless matches.

NXT however, is the fucking shit.

[XL]

Originally Posted by Anybody Thrilla Why does it even matter if what happened at Wrestlemania 30 was the original plan? It still happened regardless, and most of us loved it. If it was planned that way, then good job by them. If not, then nice audible by them. It's not really anything to argue about.

It's a distraction tactic.

I already asked what it had to do with the idea that the product is sub-par currently and he ignored it.

[Mr. Nerfect]

NXT doesn't just have better booking, but it has a better format too. They're not afraid to give each show an organic presentation, and it takes a lot more sound-minded chances with the stories it gives us.

[Damian Rey]

I just enjoy that I'm not watching last minute thrown together segments. The Apollo Crews Solomon Crowe match is a prime example. Obvious hints at Crowe resenting the crowd and getting frustrated with his own performance. Add Corey Graves' excellent commentary throughout the match and voila, what could've been a throwaway match actually serves purpose for the two guys involved. Who'd have thunk it?

[#1-norm-fan]

Originally Posted by Anybody Thrilla Why does it even matter if what happened at Wrestlemania 30 was the original plan? It still happened regardless, and most of us loved it. If it was planned that way, then good job by them. If not, then nice audible by them. It's not really anything to argue about.

It's something to argue about in the context of WWE being bizarrely inept when it comes to simple writing vs WWE actually being very well written. Within that discussion there's a big difference between them planning it all along and them being forced to call an audible to save the biggest show of the year from being a disaster.

I thought Daniel Bryan in the main event at WrestleMania was an awful idea and they managed to book things in a way where even I didn't think there was any other option eventually. Certainly not a fucking match with Sheamus. Booking such an underdog story to the point of jamming it down fans throats for 6 months that he's the hopeless underdog who will never win the big one with the plan to NOT eventually have him with the big one is such an awful idea that it's seriously just fucking weird how professional writers can not realize it from the get go.

[Damian Rey]

Yeah. If the plan was never for him to have main evented, he never should've beaten Cena. It was that completely legitimate victory that confirmed to the fans that Daniel Bryan was main event caliber. Had he won with an inside cradle it have been different. The constant screw jobs didn't help either. If wanting the audience to believe a guy is a B+ player is the goal, youbook him to lose cleanly. You don't make it seem like he has a chance but keeps getting swerved.

[BigCrippyZ]

Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan Booking such an underdog story to the point of jamming it down fans throats for 6 months that he's the hopeless underdog who will never win the big one with the plan to NOT eventually have him with the big one is such an awful idea that it's seriously just fucking weird how professional writers can not realize it from the get go.

I seriously wonder if Vince is out of touch to the point that he doesn't really remember what writing/booking has occurred in the past 3-6 months and so he thinks fans won't remember or don't care enough to remember about some of the past writing/booking that has occurred in the past 3-6 months. In other words, unless it's something historic like Brock breaking the streak, if it hasn't been setup in the last few weeks, it doesn't really matter because fans won't remember or care enough because Vince doesn't remember or care enough.

[Damian Rey]

Like Brock Lesnar destroying Big Show at Royal Rumble a few years ago. And by destroy I mean eliminating any doubt Big Show ever had a legitimate shot at winning, rendering his promo recently useless.

[#1-norm-fan]

I actually don't mind Lesnar vs Show happening again at the MSG show. Obviously Show isn't in Lesnar's league but I feel like it's not really meant to be anything more than a showcase of Brock's dominance. Brock's gonna (or at least should) beat the living shit out of Show again to show the world what he could do to Taker. It's just kinda old school booking. Since Brock is too much of an attraction to wrestle on Raw, it makes his matches on network specials equate to a Raw match for him. People will tune in just to see him dominate. Same reason I didn't mind him facing Kofi in Japan. I didn't take the special as a HUGE deal and the match served its purpose.