Raw rating lowest since July 2012

[Simple Fan]

Love how you keep bringing up the IWC like your not apart of it.

[The CyNick]

Originally Posted by Simple Fan Love how you keep bringing up the IWC like your not apart of it.

To me IWC is a sub set of sports entertainment fans on the Internet. You can be online and not be part of the IWC.

I use it to group the people who watch and spew hated week after week and think they are smarter than Vince and co.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Originally Posted by The CyNick To me IWC is a sub set of sports entertainment fans on the Internet. You can be online and not be part of the IWC. I use it to group the people who watch and spew hated week after week and think they are smarter than Vince and co.

lol I don't think anyone here thinks they are smarter than Vince McMahon.

But to ignore the fact that wrestling is a politicking backstabbing petty business where constant poor decisions are made based on ego is just naive. We know what we see.

Just because we can't do the job better than Vince, doesn't mean the job can't be done better. I personally don't partake in fantasy booking, but I do possess the ability to critique.

I take it you've been to University as you seem a very articulate (albeit sometimes obtuse) individual. Well it taught me the ability to think critically and critique something I don't like in a constructive manner. Quality is certainly subjective, but like I said before, we some how all can surmise that the Rock is better than Barry Horowitz.

Though, much like you, my fellow IWC members (that's what we all are) have the propensity to bother me all the same. You aren't alone in this in the least. It drives me nuts if I hear somebody derail the Rocks work, or call Steve Austin a lousy worker... hell if someone tries to say they weren't a fan of Hulkamania when they grew up in the 80s I know they're lying. These are all things we see in the internet community. And you are not alone in people having vastly differing opinions on all of this.

What you are alone in is being a complete and utter blowhard who thinks he's smarter than everyone for the most part lol.

[The CyNick]

Originally Posted by Gorgeous Dale Newstead lol I don't think anyone here thinks they are smarter than Vince McMahon. But to ignore the fact that wrestling is a politicking backstabbing petty business where constant poor decisions are made based on ego is just naive. We know what we see. Just because we can't do the job better than Vince, doesn't mean the job can't be done better. I personally don't partake in fantasy booking, but I do possess the ability to critique. I take it you've been to University as you seem a very articulate (albeit sometimes obtuse) individual. Well it taught me the ability to think critically and critique something I don't like in a constructive manner. Quality is certainly subjective, but like I said before, we some how all can surmise that the Rock is better than Barry Horowitz. Though, much like you, my fellow IWC members (that's what we all are) have the propensity to bother me all the same. You aren't alone in this in the least. It drives me nuts if I hear somebody derail the Rocks work, or call Steve Austin a lousy worker... hell if someone tries to say they weren't a fan of Hulkamania when they grew up in the 80s I know they're lying. These are all things we see in the internet community. And you are not alone in people having vastly differing opinions on all of this. What you are alone in is being a complete and utter blowhard who thinks he's smarter than everyone for the most part lol.

I think lots of people online think they can do things better than Vince, which is absolutely insane given that NOBODY has come close to the success Vince has had. WCW was the closest and they managed to have success for barely over a year, and then they were squashed dead by Vince. My favourite thing online is reading how people say a guy like Jim Cornette is a great mind and a booking genius. He's had stops in other companies, but I didnt see them blast off in terms of popularity. I never saw him create a worldwide superstar. Its a very unique industry, and only Vince has mastered it, therefore I give him the benefit of the doubt on decisions.

The other major beef I have is when people talk like Vince makes decisions for anything other than making money for his company in mind. The narrative is usually things like "oh he wanted to bury that guy because he's from WCW". Has any of the so called reporters in this industry ever got a quote from Vince or HHH to validate that claim? No of course not. But the people who read that garbage, take it like its gospel, and try to pass it off as fact in conversations like this one.

Roman Reigns may not catch on as a #1 babyface, but it wasnt long ago, when he looked like he was on his way to becoming just that. The same Vince that is apparently out of touch, also managed to place Daniel Bryan in the main event of 30 and create one of the most special moments in WWE history. Was he out of touch by having Daniel go down with a career threatening injury? The same Vince green lights NXT every night. Because NXT exists to appeal to a subset of the sports entertainment audience, the people on here say its the best thing in the company. Its the same guy giving the go ahead. Cant have it both ways thats all.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Vince abd h being fairly savvy corporate men give corporate answers in out of character interviews spinning their narrative. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to put that together

[The CyNick]

Originally Posted by Gorgeous Dale Newstead Vince abd h being fairly savvy corporate men give corporate answers in out of character interviews spinning their narrative. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to put that together

But scummy newsletter writers with sources who can't be named should be trusted?

Nutty

[Mr. Nerfect]

Originally Posted by The CyNick I think lots of people online think they can do things better than Vince, which is absolutely insane given that NOBODY has come close to the success Vince has had. WCW was the closest and they managed to have success for barely over a year, and then they were squashed dead by Vince. My favourite thing online is reading how people say a guy like Jim Cornette is a great mind and a booking genius. He's had stops in other companies, but I didnt see them blast off in terms of popularity. I never saw him create a worldwide superstar. Its a very unique industry, and only Vince has mastered it, therefore I give him the benefit of the doubt on decisions. The other major beef I have is when people talk like Vince makes decisions for anything other than making money for his company in mind. The narrative is usually things like "oh he wanted to bury that guy because he's from WCW". Has any of the so called reporters in this industry ever got a quote from Vince or HHH to validate that claim? No of course not. But the people who read that garbage, take it like its gospel, and try to pass it off as fact in conversations like this one. Roman Reigns may not catch on as a #1 babyface, but it wasnt long ago, when he looked like he was on his way to becoming just that. The same Vince that is apparently out of touch, also managed to place Daniel Bryan in the main event of 30 and create one of the most special moments in WWE history. Was he out of touch by having Daniel go down with a career threatening injury? The same Vince green lights NXT every night. Because NXT exists to appeal to a subset of the sports entertainment audience, the people on here say its the best thing in the company. Its the same guy giving the go ahead. Cant have it both ways thats all.

You think? That's exactly the problem. No, Dale got it right. You think wrong.

Also, you do realize that Jim Cornette was right there at Vince McMahon's right-hand side during some of the most critical re-building periods the WWE has ever had, right?

One could very easily make the argument that Vince never "created" a massive international star on his own either. He's given them platforms, which is what the role of an old-school booker was to do.

What about Kevin Sullivan? He basically created Goldberg by using a Mike Tyson template. I'm not a massive hater of The Berg, but you can't deny that how he was presented was a large part of his success in the industry. It's really annoying when you do this "Vince is responsible for all the good; none of the bad" bullshit.

It's also been widely reported that Vince does not have much input in NXT at all. Sure, he could shut it down in a second -- but let's not pretend he's running that show or a major creative influence. That's just not true.

Your last paragraphs just ramble into nonsense. Apparently you should ask a racist if he racist or something. You're impossible. There is plenty of supported evidence that allows you to see a large picture of what the WWE culture is like, and what Vince McMahon's attitudes are towards certain things.

[The CyNick]

Originally Posted by Noid You think? That's exactly the problem. No, Dale got it right. You think wrong. Also, you do realize that Jim Cornette was right there at Vince McMahon's right-hand side during some of the most critical re-building periods the WWE has ever had, right? One could very easily make the argument that Vince never "created" a massive international star on his own either. He's given them platforms, which is what the role of an old-school booker was to do. What about Kevin Sullivan? He basically created Goldberg by using a Mike Tyson template. I'm not a massive hater of The Berg, but you can't deny that how he was presented was a large part of his success in the industry. It's really annoying when you do this "Vince is responsible for all the good; none of the bad" bullshit. It's also been widely reported that Vince does not have much input in NXT at all. Sure, he could shut it down in a second -- but let's not pretend he's running that show or a major creative influence. That's just not true. Your last paragraphs just ramble into nonsense. Apparently you should ask a racist if he racist or something. You're impossible. There is plenty of supported evidence that allows you to see a large picture of what the WWE culture is like, and what Vince McMahon's attitudes are towards certain things.

Do you know what exactly Cornette contributed to WWE's rebuild? Dont tell me what the Dirt Sheet writers wrote, give me your own inside scoops. What I know is that since he left WWE, Cornette has not done anything worth talking about, except complain on the internet. Probably tells you all you need to know about his contributions vs Vince's.

You know who else had a major contribution to WWE's success in the late 90s? Vince Russo. Notice he didnt make your Wall of Fame (doesnt fit the narrative, I know). Did you see what happened to him after he left Vince's wing? I did too, it wasnt pretty.

Ive never once said "Vince is responsible for all the good and none of the bad". If I was an American, I would sue you for liable. But I'm a good natured Canadian, so I will let it pass. But hey, it upped your word count, so well done lad.

NXT has been reported as Triple H's baby. Of course the NXT Triple H is a different person than the Dirt Sheet villain Triple H who buries everyone so he can push himself. I bet he's just building NXT so that he can book himself against the entire roster and Pedigree them all. That aside, the issue that gets lost is that NXT is a company wide effort. Triple H has said himself that NXT is meant to target a different audience from RAW and Smackdown. Quite frankly, booking to satisfy the passionate WWE fans is easier, but it likely wont appeal to the wider audience. Thats why its on the WWE Network, which is essentialy made up of all passionate fans. At the end of the day, if Vince thought it was crap, he wouldn't allow it on his Network. But he does, and he pushes it like crazy, and allows it to grow.

Most interviews I've read of guys who were real players in WWE and would have had extensive experience with Vince usually have nothing but positive things to say about him.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Originally Posted by The CyNick Do you know what exactly Cornette contributed to WWE's rebuild? Dont tell me what the Dirt Sheet writers wrote, give me your own inside scoops. What I know is that since he left WWE, Cornette has not done anything worth talking about, except complain on the internet. Probably tells you all you need to know about his contributions vs Vince's. You know who else had a major contribution to WWE's success in the late 90s? Vince Russo. Notice he didnt make your Wall of Fame (doesnt fit the narrative, I know). Did you see what happened to him after he left Vince's wing? I did too, it wasnt pretty. Ive never once said "Vince is responsible for all the good and none of the bad". If I was an American, I would sue you for liable. But I'm a good natured Canadian, so I will let it pass. But hey, it upped your word count, so well done lad. NXT has been reported as Triple H's baby. Of course the NXT Triple H is a different person than the Dirt Sheet villain Triple H who buries everyone so he can push himself. I bet he's just building NXT so that he can book himself against the entire roster and Pedigree them all. That aside, the issue that gets lost is that NXT is a company wide effort. Triple H has said himself that NXT is meant to target a different audience from RAW and Smackdown. Quite frankly, booking to satisfy the passionate WWE fans is easier, but it likely wont appeal to the wider audience. Thats why its on the WWE Network, which is essentialy made up of all passionate fans. At the end of the day, if Vince thought it was crap, he wouldn't allow it on his Network. But he does, and he pushes it like crazy, and allows it to grow. Most interviews I've read of guys who were real players in WWE and would have had extensive experience with Vince usually have nothing but positive things to say about him.

Any time you reference the dirt sheets you deserve to have your nuts zapped. You actually sound retarded.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Originally Posted by The CyNick Do you know what exactly Cornette contributed to WWE's rebuild? Dont tell me what the Dirt Sheet writers wrote, give me your own inside scoops. What I know is that since he left WWE, Cornette has not done anything worth talking about, except complain on the internet. Probably tells you all you need to know about his contributions vs Vince's. You know who else had a major contribution to WWE's success in the late 90s? Vince Russo. Notice he didnt make your Wall of Fame (doesnt fit the narrative, I know). Did you see what happened to him after he left Vince's wing? I did too, it wasnt pretty. Ive never once said "Vince is responsible for all the good and none of the bad". If I was an American, I would sue you for liable. But I'm a good natured Canadian, so I will let it pass. But hey, it upped your word count, so well done lad. NXT has been reported as Triple H's baby. Of course the NXT Triple H is a different person than the Dirt Sheet villain Triple H who buries everyone so he can push himself. I bet he's just building NXT so that he can book himself against the entire roster and Pedigree them all. That aside, the issue that gets lost is that NXT is a company wide effort. Triple H has said himself that NXT is meant to target a different audience from RAW and Smackdown. Quite frankly, booking to satisfy the passionate WWE fans is easier, but it likely wont appeal to the wider audience. Thats why its on the WWE Network, which is essentialy made up of all passionate fans. At the end of the day, if Vince thought it was crap, he wouldn't allow it on his Network. But he does, and he pushes it like crazy, and allows it to grow. Most interviews I've read of guys who were real players in WWE and would have had extensive experience with Vince usually have nothing but positive things to say about him.

Cornette came up with the Hell in a Cell idea, he was largely responsible for protecting Kane during the first six months of his career. He, Jim Ross and Bruce Pritchard would hang out with Vince at his house and block out the entire show. After leaving the main roster, he went down to OVW, where he helped craft basically anyone that came up from OVW at that point in time until Heyman took over in 2005.

His plans for ROH were basically what Triple H did with NXT, except Sinclair didn't commit to them. What a bad idea, huh?

Cornette and Russo are very different people with very different attitudes to the industry. It's not a case of not fitting the narrative, it's a case of them playing different roles in them.

[#1-norm-fan]

Originally Posted by Gorgeous Dale Newstead lol I don't think anyone here thinks they are smarter than Vince McMahon

I definitely think I am smarter than an out of touch 70 year old man who thinks that poop and fart jokes are the pinnacle of comedy. Now this Cynick character may scoff at that but he seems to share that 70 year old man's idea of what's entertaining so... I DUNNO *fart*

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan I definitely think I am smarter than an out of touch 70 year old man who thinks that poop and fart jokes are the pinnacle of comedy. Now this Cynick character may scoff at that but he seems to share that 70 year old man's idea of what's entertaining so... I DUNNO *fart*

Well let's be reasonable. As far as creative and coherent ideas, I think Vince is probably past his sell by date. But there's more to being just a creative mind that goes into the product. Variables that you and I would probably crumble having them forced upon us.

So yeah, while creatively, I can think of something far better than the Katie Vick angle, or having to reference Reid Flair's death to appeal to the lowest common denominator... I also wouldn't really know how to coordinate with a producer how to piece a show together to ensure Brock Lesnar comes across as a star.

I mean I'd get the idea of how to BOOK him like a star, but the logistics and the ins and outs make Vince a genius. It does go a little beyond the storylines... which I really wish it didn't. Plus as Chris Jericho has pointed out, there is that fine line b/w genius and madness, which Vince often crosses. Every 1000 shitty ideas he has and we're forced to stomach, he has one MONEY idea where every thing clicks and I could probably say I wouldn't be able to make that happen. I could maybe think of the idea, but I couldn't be the quarterback and make it happen.

And I mean for every fart and poop joke that is terrible, when Vince is in character and on screen, he is pretty fucking hilarious.

[#1-norm-fan]

From a business and marketing standpoint, he's well aware of what he's doing. That includes all the little production aspects. CyNick wants to throw a blanket reference to him being a genius out there as if his business smarts is directly related to his creative mind so if you think giving a diva a farting gimmick or ending a heavily-featured blood feud without explanation is retarded, YOU must be wrong because Vince can't be.

[The CyNick]

Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan From a business and marketing standpoint, he's well aware of what he's doing. That includes all the little production aspects. CyNick wants to throw a blanket reference to him being a genius out there as if his business smarts is directly related to his creative mind so if you think giving a diva a farting gimmick or ending a heavily-featured blood feud without explanation is retarded, YOU must be wrong because Vince can't be.

Ive never said he's batting 100%

Ive said his batting average is multiple times better than anyone else in the history of the business.

[The CyNick]

Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan I definitely think I am smarter than an out of touch 70 year old man who thinks that poop and fart jokes are the pinnacle of comedy. Now this Cynick character may scoff at that but he seems to share that 70 year old man's idea of what's entertaining so... I DUNNO *fart*

Hahaha, how is your billion dollar company doing?

I find it ironic that you are talking about a 70 year old man is out of touch, and you are in a thread that is talking about what a crisis it is that Monday's ratings have declined. You should read some recent articles about what major networks think about daily TV ratings that dont factor in DVR and Digital numbers. At least Vince has the excuse of being 70 years, whats your excuse for not understanding the paradigm shift in entertainment consumption.

BTW - WWE is I believe the 5th most popular VOD service. Not bad for an out of touch 70 year old.