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Old 11-18-2015, 08:15 PM   #41
The CyNick
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Simple Fan View Post
The mans a Hall of Famer and runs his own promotion but he means nothing to the business long term.



Couldn't take anything else serious after he called Booker a good hand.
Isnt KoKo B Ware a Hall of Famer?

How would you describe him?
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Old 11-18-2015, 08:18 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hb2k View Post
The whole HHH reign of terror reeks of him finding excuses to constantly hold off him losing because the next big reason is the right one.

Should lose to RVD? No, wait, we'll lose to Kane. Nope, wait, we'll lose it to Shawn to get it back to me, then I'll lose it on the big show to the new star, Booker. Nope, we've got Goldberg now, it'll mean more to lose to him. But lets do this Nash feud first. Okay, lets do the Goldberg thing. But I should win the Chamber first, THEN lose, because there will be more heat. Then I get it back to put over Benoit at Mania. Orton beats Benoit, HHH immediately kills Orton, and in a fluke mulligan, at last, after four years, loses to Batista, and finally the shit cycle is broken.
Are you saying he should have lost to Booker T, RVD, Kane, and Goldberg?

At the end of the day he put over Goldberg for the title. He got it back because Goldberg was a part time guy, and WWE wanted someone full time to carry the belt. Then he put over Benoit clean (multiple times). Yes, he got it back because Benoit was a flop as a headliner. He then singlehandedly made Batista a superstar. He then put over Cena the following year.

I'm curious what more you felt he should have done.
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Old 11-18-2015, 08:20 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vito Cruz View Post
Yeah you can take it that way. Why not build tension of there being no champion?

And regardless of when he returned, if they had some grand master plan of giving Punk a massively long reign (they probably didn't) why not just have him keep it from MITB 2011 until he lost it? What point did it serve to have Del Rio and Cena play hot potato with the belt? It did pretty much nothing for Del Rio after a year about him talking about his "destiny".
The whole idea behind the angle was to have Punk run around with the real belt. I dont know if that got them what they were looking for in terms of publicity. At the end of the day, Punk ended up going over Cena multiple times and then got a massive run with the title.

Another case of I'm not sure what more could be done to help Punk there.
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Old 11-18-2015, 08:25 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rammsteinmad View Post
There's two flaws that have popped up however, in regards to people being ready and the legitimacy of the title.

Firstly, saying guys like RVD weren't ready for the title because he wasn't "on Triple H's level" is silly. Was Triple H on Steve Austin's level when he won his first title? Was John Cena on "Triple H's level" when he won his first title?

By the time of Unforgiven 2002, Rob Van Dam had been one of the most over guys in the company for over a year. Winning that title would have put him on Triple H's level, or as close as he ever would be, seeing as nobody could come close to being on the level of the guy who's banging the bosses daughter.

The other issue is Triple H's reign legitimizing a title. It's a valid point, but did it really need a three year reign of terror to do so? Do casual fans and ten-year-old kids care about the history of the title?
You cant have Triple H put over everyone and still remain a credible draw himself. When you have a star the caliber of HHH, you want to use him to make new stars, who you think can eventually carry the ball. I really dont think a guy like RVD was someone you want to invest in. History would prove this true when they finally did put the title on him, and he embarrassed the company by getting poppe for drug arrest.

Did Triple H have the belt for three years? He was a top guy, and he managed to make or help make new top stars in 04, 05 and 06. Who else should have carried the company during that time period?
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Old 11-18-2015, 08:27 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Vic View Post
Look what it did for Batista though, a sub-par talent was put over cleanly at 3 consecutive PPVs by Raws top dog and he was set for the rest of his career.
Because Batista was really talented, so HHH identified that and put him over multiple times. I suppose he did something wrong there though too.

Booker T and RVD were not on Batista's level.
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Old 11-18-2015, 08:30 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
Because

Booker T and RVD were not on Batista's level.
Oh wow.
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Old 11-18-2015, 08:33 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noid View Post
Thank you!

Anyone who thinks Triple H vs. Booker T at WrestleMania XIX was a good piece of business is a fucking moron. Anyone who thinks Triple H's long run with the belt, beating down far more interesting babyface acts was a good piece of business just needs to look at their ratings compared to SmackDown's.

That's not a blast at Triple H, by the way. That's just the reality of RAW '02-'05.

Dumbest thing said in this thread: "The long term money match in 2003 was with Goldberg, and I believe when the time was right, they put the strap on Goldberg"

Bwahahahaha!
So how should Booker T vs HHH went down at 19? Did you just not like the finish? Did you think Flair shouldnt have kept getting involved so HHH could just win clean? How would you have improved the piece of business? Booker go over clean?

Which other babyfaces did he "beat down" during that time? RVD I'm assuming? Was it okay that he beat The Hurricane? Or was he right on the cusp of headlining as well?

Sorry, in your mind, what was the long term money match for HHH in 2003 if not Goldberg? Or was it the timing that you didnt like? You already had Booker T or RVD beating HHH, so really I guess the long term match would be something like Booker T vs Goldberg? Dont forget Goldberg is going to leave the WWE in a few months, so if you put him over everyone, you might be left with no eggs in your basket. But I'm sure you already thought of that.
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Old 11-18-2015, 08:34 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by KIRA View Post
Oh wow.
Disagree?
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Old 11-18-2015, 08:35 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noid View Post
Lol, I remember an article that was written listing Triple H as one of the most unsexy men in the world after he inserted himself right into the CM Punk stuff and made it about him and Kevin Nash for some reason.
hahahaha that article sound so amazing. I cant wait to look it up and read it.
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Old 11-18-2015, 08:39 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
Booker T and RVD were not on Batista's level.
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Originally Posted by KIRA View Post
Oh wow.
he's right
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Old 11-18-2015, 08:42 PM   #51
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don't really care about the Triple H reign of doom that still seems to get people so worked up, the RVD stuff, the Kane stuff etc. That said, Booker should have gone over at Mania, even if it meant hotshotting the belt back a month later
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Old 11-18-2015, 08:46 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Corporate CockSnogger View Post
Please at least show some respect to Kevin Nash in this honourable month.
4 REALSIES
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Old 11-18-2015, 08:48 PM   #53
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if people talk shit about Big Kev during Nashvember, can we get some bans handed out? I'm thinking

first offence: lifetime
second offence: ISP contacted and internet shut down
third offence: some kind of modern witch hunt
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Old 11-18-2015, 08:57 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
Disagree?
Not so much with RVD with Booker YES and its not like he could not have been built up to that level he was talented and over the Triple-H stuff cut the legs out from under him (in a pretty despicable way even if it is just wrestling)

Batista is only "Above Booker's level because the company got behind him and pushed as a huge deal. Booker had it all over Batista he could talk as a heel or face (Batista only hit his stride as a heel) he was Athletic and had a nice look to him. Theres a Wrestle crap entry that talks about the HHH Booker thing way better than I can that said Booker definitely should have beaten HHH even James Steele will fully admit this.

Saying Batista has it over Booker to me is like saying Nikki Bella has it over Sasha Banks.

When the company gets behind you and wants you to be the guy you really can't lose barring a colossal fuck-up. Look at Roman he's gonna be the man whether you like it or not. Is he better than Ambrose fuck no, but he's the guy the company wants.
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Old 11-18-2015, 09:07 PM   #55
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Going back to the original idea of this thread, which is a great idea btw


Cynick, Why was it good that Hulk Hogan beat Yokozuna at WM IX instead of just having Bret win or even Yokozuna keeping the belt?

Thanks
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Old 11-18-2015, 09:10 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSL View Post
if people talk shit about Big Kev during Nashvember, can we get some bans handed out? I'm thinking

first offence: lifetime
second offence: ISP contacted and internet shut down
third offence: some kind of modern witch hunt
Is somebody talking shit about Nash during Nashvember? Even I've abstained out of respect for the season.
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Old 11-18-2015, 09:35 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
Are you saying he should have lost to Booker T, RVD, Kane, and Goldberg?

At the end of the day he put over Goldberg for the title. He got it back because Goldberg was a part time guy, and WWE wanted someone full time to carry the belt. Then he put over Benoit clean (multiple times). Yes, he got it back because Benoit was a flop as a headliner. He then singlehandedly made Batista a superstar. He then put over Cena the following year.

I'm curious what more you felt he should have done.
Listen to his podcast. It's a bunch of dudes who actually know what they are talking about. And actually read what he says and don't put words into his mouth.
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Old 11-18-2015, 09:37 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
So how should Booker T vs HHH went down at 19? Did you just not like the finish? Did you think Flair shouldnt have kept getting involved so HHH could just win clean? How would you have improved the piece of business? Booker go over clean?

Which other babyfaces did he "beat down" during that time? RVD I'm assuming? Was it okay that he beat The Hurricane? Or was he right on the cusp of headlining as well?

Sorry, in your mind, what was the long term money match for HHH in 2003 if not Goldberg? Or was it the timing that you didnt like? You already had Booker T or RVD beating HHH, so really I guess the long term match would be something like Booker T vs Goldberg? Dont forget Goldberg is going to leave the WWE in a few months, so if you put him over everyone, you might be left with no eggs in your basket. But I'm sure you already thought of that.
Hahahahaha!
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Old 11-18-2015, 09:38 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSL View Post
don't really care about the Triple H reign of doom that still seems to get people so worked up, the RVD stuff, the Kane stuff etc. That said, Booker should have gone over at Mania, even if it meant hotshotting the belt back a month later
CSL proves his greatness again. You cannot put the heel over in the style of feud they developed between Triple H and Booker T. You don't need to give Booker an eight month run with the belt. It was all in that moment of proving he could beat Triple H.
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Old 11-18-2015, 09:52 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noid View Post
CSL proves his greatness again. You cannot put the heel over in the style of feud they developed between Triple H and Booker T. You don't need to give Booker an eight month run with the belt. It was all in that moment of proving he could beat Triple H.
Agreed for that storyline it made ZERO sense for Triple H to come out on top.
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Old 11-18-2015, 09:58 PM   #61
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Interesting discussion and I think Cynick actually makes some good points, but defending EVERY decision is overzealous. Even if you praise the product people make mistakes at the best of times.

Booker should have gotten his moment after the way the feud was booked, and you never know what could have happened with him after that.

Cynick is right about Punk though. They couldn't have done anymore for him. He was put on par with Cena and pushed to the moon. He didn't have Cenas work ethic and ended up sulking off. Another reason why they have to be careful who they invest in.

Am sure they were grateful they didn't invest in RVD either, too unreliable as a person to be the face of the company even for a period of time. One drugs bust as champ and the whole company suffers.
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Old 11-18-2015, 10:17 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KIRA View Post
Is somebody talking shit about Nash during Nashvember? Even I've abstained out of respect for the season.
Hell, I'd even go so far as to say we should officially change the name of Thanksgiving to Nashgiving.
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Old 11-18-2015, 10:33 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by KIRA View Post
Not so much with RVD with Booker YES and its not like he could not have been built up to that level he was talented and over the Triple-H stuff cut the legs out from under him (in a pretty despicable way even if it is just wrestling)

Batista is only "Above Booker's level because the company got behind him and pushed as a huge deal. Booker had it all over Batista he could talk as a heel or face (Batista only hit his stride as a heel) he was Athletic and had a nice look to him. Theres a Wrestle crap entry that talks about the HHH Booker thing way better than I can that said Booker definitely should have beaten HHH even James Steele will fully admit this.

Saying Batista has it over Booker to me is like saying Nikki Bella has it over Sasha Banks.

When the company gets behind you and wants you to be the guy you really can't lose barring a colossal fuck-up. Look at Roman he's gonna be the man whether you like it or not. Is he better than Ambrose fuck no, but he's the guy the company wants.
Nah. Lots of guys were pushed to the moon, but just failed. Lex Luger comes to mind.

I like Booker T, probably sounds like I dont. I just think he's a solid hand, but doesnt have the "it" factor to be the guy. He could have been world champion, and I dont think he would have killed business or anything, but I dont think he would have helped.

Batista has a presence about him, that you just cant teach. Its probably why he's blowing up in Hollywood. The WWE may have made him a big star, but they are not making him a star in Hollywood, he's doing that because he understands how to present himself as a star, and understand how to dominate the screen. He doesnt say very much in the Bond movie, but he's presence is amazing.
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Old 11-18-2015, 10:35 PM   #64
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Listen to his podcast. It's a bunch of dudes who actually know what they are talking about. And actually read what he says and don't put words into his mouth.
I read it, I read everything. It was the same old same old I read somewhere else at the time in 4 point font. Completely unoriginal thoughts.
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Old 11-18-2015, 10:36 PM   #65
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Hahahahaha!
About the response I would expect from you. I love when I set the bar low for you, and you still manage to limbo your way under it.
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Old 11-18-2015, 10:38 PM   #66
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Going back to the original idea of this thread, which is a great idea btw


Cynick, Why was it good that Hulk Hogan beat Yokozuna at WM IX instead of just having Bret win or even Yokozuna keeping the belt?

Thanks
Never liked that call. Bret should have just won and went on to face Hogan and beat him. At the same time, I can see from Hogan's perspective why he didnt want to put over Bret.
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Old 11-18-2015, 10:42 PM   #67
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2 in 1 here

Was it a good idea for Orton to win the World Heavyweight Championship in 2004 from Benoit?

Was it a good idea to take the title away from Orton a month later?
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Old 11-18-2015, 10:49 PM   #68
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They were completely different characters though. Flair looked like a normal dude off the street, HHH was/is built like a beast. Not everyone should be booked like Ric Flair was.
that is just terrible logic.
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Old 11-18-2015, 10:50 PM   #69
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Nah. Lots of guys were pushed to the moon, but just failed. Lex Luger comes to mind.

I like Booker T, probably sounds like I dont. I just think he's a solid hand, but doesnt have the "it" factor to be the guy. He could have been world champion, and I dont think he would have killed business or anything, but I dont think he would have helped.

Batista has a presence about him, that you just cant teach. Its probably why he's blowing up in Hollywood. The WWE may have made him a big star, but they are not making him a star in Hollywood, he's doing that because he understands how to present himself as a star, and understand how to dominate the screen. He doesnt say very much in the Bond movie, but he's presence is amazing.
HHH doesn't have the it factor to be "the guy".
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Old 11-18-2015, 10:55 PM   #70
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Nah. Lots of guys were pushed to the moon, but just failed. Lex Luger comes to mind.

I like Booker T, probably sounds like I dont. I just think he's a solid hand, but doesnt have the "it" factor to be the guy. He could have been world champion, and I dont think he would have killed business or anything, but I dont think he would have helped.

Batista has a presence about him, that you just cant teach. Its probably why he's blowing up in Hollywood. The WWE may have made him a big star, but they are not making him a star in Hollywood, he's doing that because he understands how to present himself as a star, and understand how to dominate the screen. He doesnt say very much in the Bond movie, but he's presence is amazing.
I wonder is it the same intangible "it factor" that I've argued Daniel Bryan has and other people seemed to think Bret Hart had.

About booker T tho, if you never give the guy the ball how do you know he can't run with it? DB,Seth(in Seths case it was more the fans) and recently especially The New Day could have all easily been afterthoughts lost in the shuffle but They turned out to be phenomenal when they were given the chance to shine. (Bryans bad luck notwithstanding)
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Old 11-19-2015, 12:09 AM   #71
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I think people are understating the Batista turn storyline. It took place over about several months. It was a slow build where Dancing Dave started doubting Trips supremacy, then actually got in his face once or twice, all leading to the thumbs down and eventual turn. Throughout the process, fans ate it up.

One of the last times long term booking was properly used.
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Old 11-19-2015, 12:14 AM   #72
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Dave was pretty good but the same arguments used AGAINST the likes of RVD, Booker T et all could have been used against him. It's just arbitrarily whatever serves the narrative is used as a reason why the guy didn't go over.
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Old 11-19-2015, 12:51 AM   #73
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2 plus 2....do you know booker?...... Thomas jefferson sucka
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Old 11-19-2015, 01:03 AM   #74
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Booker should have gone over at Mania. But hey, whatever.
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Old 11-19-2015, 06:02 AM   #75
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Well, to get back on topic, CyNick said he responded to this point on the discussion of that major Bella twins angle last year with some super legit CYNICKFACTS but I was hoping maybe he could use this thread to SCHOOL US ALL with a nice truncated CYNICKFACT RESPONSE or maybe even some CYNICKQUOTES from when he already showed us the CYNICKFACTS that properly explained WWE's writing process here...

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Look everything on TV is exaggerated. Plenty of TV shows or movies will have something happen between characters and then they work it out.
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I've honestly never seen another situation in any form of scripted entertainment where two people in the middle of a heated feud seemingly became best friends again off-camera between episodes with no explanation...

Because that would be some all-time horrible writing and outside of WWE currently, even the trashiest, shittiest TV shows and movies have higher writing standards than that.
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Old 11-19-2015, 07:15 AM   #76
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Fan, we just don't understand wrestling the way he does. We need to accept this.
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Old 11-19-2015, 07:42 AM   #77
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I love that explanation, though. It's like he had nothing left other than to dump on creative/Vince, so instead went with: "Don't forget it's not real, you guys!"
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Old 11-19-2015, 08:37 AM   #78
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CSL proves his greatness again. You cannot put the heel over in the style of feud they developed between Triple H and Booker T. You don't need to give Booker an eight month run with the belt. It was all in that moment of proving he could beat Triple H.
If you're just going to put the belt back on Trips, what's the point? Booker T wasn't meant to be a long term headliner. He was just there to help give HHH more credibility.

If HHH was just going to get the belt back, this would essentially be like losing a non title match, which I thought you say kills a guys credibility.
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Old 11-19-2015, 08:46 AM   #79
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2 in 1 here

Was it a good idea for Orton to win the World Heavyweight Championship in 2004 from Benoit?

Was it a good idea to take the title away from Orton a month later?
Yes, to the first one. The whole point should have been Orton did what Hunter couldn't (beat Benoit). The next couple months should have been Hunter acting like he was happy for Orton, and struggling with taking a secondary role in the group. Then I would have had Hunter win the title in some type of multi person match where he didn't pin Orton. Then have Orton ask Hunter for a rematch saying we can have an all time classic match, the belt will stay in the evolution family, and we will shake hands after, but i just need to know if i can beat you. Hunter then does the deal where they beat him down.

Yeah to me they rushed it with moving the belt to Hunter. However, at the end of the day they turned the angle to get over Batista instead of Orton. So it's like I would have booked 21 to be Orton v Hunter with Orton getting revenge as a babyface. They moved Batista into the role, Hunter looked unstoppable then because of the Orton angle, and the show did a massive amount of buys. So in the end maybe they made the right call.
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Old 11-19-2015, 08:48 AM   #80
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Because Batista was really talented, so HHH identified that and put him over multiple times. I suppose he did something wrong there though too.
HHH didn't do anything wrong but at the time Batista's mic skills were pretty awful.
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