MLB Thread

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

You can still look at RBI with some value because it shows that a guy can cash in on the opportunities he gets. Someone has to get those runs in, after all. Coupling it with say, average with runners in scoring position, can give some more context to it, but it shouldn't be completely ignored.

Yeah it tells you if a guy is useful in a spot. It doesn't telll you everything but it tells you enough.

However a guy cam be great with just 70 rbis in the middle of the order and it could have to do with the rest of the team and that is when the analytics come into play. They compliment the intangibles, they don't eliminate them.

[screech]

Yeah it tells you if a guy is useful in a spot. It doesn't telll you everything but it tells you enough.

However a guy cam be great with just 70 rbis in the middle of the order and it could have to do with the rest of the team and that is when the analytics come into play. They compliment the intangibles, they don't eliminate them.

Well yeah, then you need to dig a little bit, which is why I brought up average w/RISP (I guess BABIP works there too, but I don't know a whole lot about that so I could be wrong).

It also helps (somewhat) to have an RBI guy - or just a generally "feared hitter" (for lack of a better term) - in the order to make the pitcher sweat a bit and change the plan. Because with two on in a tie game, he's going to pitch Josh Donaldson differently than Ryan Howard.

Maybe a bad example, but seeing Howard K 3-5 times a game in key spots starts to wear lol

[Nicky Fives]

Under the radar but Tigers signed Saltalamacchia to a one-year deal for just above minimum (with Marlins eating most of his salary)

Agreed to two-year deal with Mark Lowe



Really liking the moves Avila has been making.

Saltalamacchia could be the best value of all the FA signings if he gets hot.... good luck with Mark Lowe though.....

[Damian Rey]

I just pointed out how bad Brandon Phillips was despite having a 100 plus RBI season. If you looked solely at RBI you would think he had a good year. When you actually look at his own context neutral numbers you find that he was actually below average as a hitter and his RBI tally are completely misleading and, in his case, completely useless in observing his overall production.

Pitchers pitching differently based on "fear" or lineup protection is largely false. The only thing ever determined when it's been studied at length is the "protected" batter might draw an extra walk or two or put an extra ball in play but the results on batted balls or overall outcomes of an bat weren't even marginally effected based on perceived "protection".

RISP is also a context dependant stat. It's also pretty useless. Matt Kemp drove in 100 runs. Based on what you guys are saying, he's an RBI guy and is adequately doing his job. Yet, he as barely league average offensively and with runners in scoring position was actually less than league average. It wasn't dramatically less but less is less. He hit an uninspired 270 with risp. Yet the 100 RBI lead you to believe he does his job or has some sort of skill in the position.

He really doesn't. He is just another example of a mediocre hitter slotted in one of the two best lineup spots to drive in runs, and league averaged his way to a high RBI count that doesn't tell you he actually wasn't very good at bat for at bat.

I get RBI has been staple of baseball stats that we've been conditioned to place importance in but it really isn't an important stat any more than pitcher wins. The guy driving in a run is just the beneficiary of a prime lineup position.

The Yankees, the Rangers, the Astros, and the Nationals all failed to have even on player hit the heralded 100 RBI mark. 4 of the top ten teams in total runs scored. Two of this teams were in the top 3 in runs. But no 100 RBI guy. The mvp of the national league fell short. He wasn't anywhere near the lead. You wouldn't discredit him for not even being in the top ten in RBI right? You wouldn't discredit Mike Trout because at least ten guys finished with more RBI right? Would you say those guys were better than him?

Gorgeous just stated "it could have to do with rest of the team" if a great middle of the order bat only drives 70. That's exactly what an RBI is. It's a "what the rest of my team did prior to me getting an at bat" stat.

[Evil Vito]

<font color=goldenrod>Kris Bryant has filed a formal grievance against the Cubs claiming that they intentionally waited until April 17th to call him to the big leagues. He accrued 171 days of service, a full big league season from a service standpoint is 172 days. Ergo, the Cubs bought an entire extra year of cost-controlled service by waiting to call him up.

I mean...it's pretty blatant it was done intentionally. And I don't blame the Cubs one bit. It's the smart move to make and not having Bryant for those 2 weeks really didn't make a big difference.

I can't see how this grievance goes anywhere. If you award Bryant extra service time, you create a slippery slope. If the MLBPA wants to take issue with this, they need to work out something for the next CBA.</font>

[Evil Vito]

<font color=goldenrod>Maikel Franco filed a similar grievance against the Phillies today, too.</font>

[road doggy dogg]

<font color=goldenrod>Kris Bryant has filed a formal grievance against the Cubs claiming that they intentionally waited until April 17th to call him to the big leagues. He accrued 171 days of service, a full big league season from a service standpoint is 172 days. Ergo, the Cubs bought an entire extra year of cost-controlled service by waiting to call him up.

I mean...it's pretty blatant it was done intentionally. And I don't blame the Cubs one bit. It's the smart move to make and not having Bryant for those 2 weeks really didn't make a big difference.

I can't see how this grievance goes anywhere. If you award Bryant extra service time, you create a slippery slope. If the MLBPA wants to take issue with this, they need to work out something for the next CBA.</font>

lol yeah, during that time EVERYBODY was lauding the Cubs for doing exactly that, for exactly that reason. Why wait until now to make a stink about it?

[road doggy dogg]

Saltalamacchia could be the best value of all the FA signings if he gets hot.... good luck with Mark Lowe though.....

I originally heard the Lowe deal was 2 years / $6.5M but was corrected to be $6.5M per year for 2 years.

Not a huge huge commitment for him (considering what the market seems to be like atm) so I like it. Plus, the Tigers' bullpen has nowhere to go but absolutely up.

[Evil Vito]

lol yeah, during that time EVERYBODY was lauding the Cubs for doing exactly that, for exactly that reason. Why wait until now to make a stink about it?

<font color=goldenrod>Yeah. No idea why he'd have waited this long to complain, it just makes Bryant look bad. I'd suspect Boras is in his ear much as he was in Harvey's year during that whole innings dilemma late in the season.

Boras could give a fuck less what the public perception of his players is. He just wants them to do whatever they can to get paid the most.</font>

[road doggy dogg]

Like honestly, Avila has been great this offseason. Basically getting rid of all the pieces that didn't work (non-tendered AlAl and FELIZ NAVIDAD, traded away Krol) and making small moves to bolster the solid pieces (Wilson, Hardy) already there. Obviously not going to be the KC 'pen but should be improved over last two years.

Plus with that nasty 1-5 lineup (Maybin-Kinsler-Miggy-VMart-JD) + whatever LF they sign (Gordon or Cespedes in a perfect world), pitching will be an afterthought (wishful thinking)

[road doggy dogg]

Boras is the worst thing about sports, but also the very best at doing exactly what he is supposed to do. Hard to like the guy but damn you gotta respect the size of his CANTALOUPES

[road doggy dogg]

nvm :'(

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Tigers GM Al Avila tells Detroit reporters that they are out of Cespedes and Alex Gordon talks. <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Tigers?src=hash">#Tigers</a></p>&mdash; Bob Nightengale (@BNightengale) <a href="https://twitter.com/BNightengale/status/673986632425463809">December 7, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[Evil Vito]

Plus with that nasty 1-5 lineup (Maybin-Kinsler-Miggy-VMart-JD) + whatever LF they sign (Gordon or Cespedes in a perfect world), pitching will be an afterthought (wishful thinking)

<font color=goldenrod>I would be very interested in seeing if Cespedes goes back to Detroit. He was very vocal about not thinking Detroit should punt at the deadline with the Wild Card picture so cluttered, was quoted as being unhappy when Price got moved, and then they traded him the next day to make it 4 teams in 2 years.

Wonder if there's any "bad blood" on his behalf towards Detroit even though it's a different GM. That being said, money talks. Angels might be in on him too.</font>

[Evil Vito]

<font color=goldenrod>Alrighty that answers that</font> :o

[road doggy dogg]

I'm not sure how his camp feels but that's definitely justified. Every single Detroit fan I know would absolutely love to see him back. Everyone was crushed when he was traded (though it was understandably the right move)

[Evil Vito]

<font color=goldenrod>Feel like the Mets are going to take some heat when Cespedes inevitably goes elsewhere. But I just don't think he has the range to play CF full-time, and that's the only apparent spot for him in NY unless they wanted to send Michael Conforto down to AAA, which I wouldn't agree with at all.

Will miss watching that goddamn cannon in the outfield, tho.</font>

[road doggy dogg]

LF is really a gaping hole right now though. JD is solid in right. Maybin/Gose platooning CF is... serviceable (not ideal). You put a guy like Cespedes in LF and I'll take Maybin/Gose all day.

Now, though. Having Collins in left makes Maybin/Gose look a lot shakier. Hmm. Hope Avila's got one more magic move up his sleeve before all is said and done.

[Damian Rey]

It's better that they don't extend him. Of the four outfielders on the market, I think Cespedes has the biggest bust potential. He was amazing this year, but he's also 30 and he wasn't any where near the player he was this year in 2013 or 14.

His primary skill is power and he's now 30 and doesn't have a good track record of avoiding outs. That's probably not going to improve much and the last thing Detroit needs is being tied into a wrong side of 30 outfielder who can't avoid outs and won't wield the power he once did.

They should sign Heyward or Upton. Both those guys fit nicely for them.

[screech]

Think DET will go after Upton?

[road doggy dogg]

uhhh Cespedes hit 35 homers and 42 doubles this year... what's all this "lack of power" talk

[road doggy dogg]

But I do agree SOMEWHAT about the age thing, if only because he's reportedly seeking a 6-year deal


But didn't he join the league late? I swear he was just signed by the A's like 3 years ago

[road doggy dogg]

Think DET will go after Upton?

If Verlander pitches like he did to close the season, Tigers fans will be all-in on Upton





...you meant Kate, right? :shifty:

[Emperor Smeat]

6 years might be too much for Cespedes unless he goes strictly DH near the end of it. Would require to be on an AL team though.

[Evil Vito]

<font color=goldenrod>Wrong thread there chief</font>

[Evil Vito]

Dodgers keep Chase Utley around on a 1-year deal.

<font color=goldenrod>Anything that gives me another excuse to watch this is a wonderful thing.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/FhKYSs42K1s" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Doubt Citi Field will ever hear that kind of heat again. Love how it goes from mild boos for the jobber players, to louder ones for Greinke/Kershaw, and then Utley just gets absolute nuclear heat to the point where they have to keep the camera on him longer.</font>

[weather vane]

Red Sox getting Carson Smith is massive. Wow. Loving these moves.

[Corndad]

Dear Pirates. Do something. Anything. Be different this year.

Thanks

Signed any Pirate Fan who has ever watched in the last 20 years.

[Damian Rey]

uhhh Cespedes hit 35 homers and 42 doubles this year... what's all this "lack of power" talk

I didn't say he lacked power. I said he's in the wrong side of 30 and has little secondary skills to hello offset what is going to be a decline in power, his biggest trait.

He just put up his best year, at age 30. Maybe he's got one more year or two like this in the tank but It's unlikely. Obvious his plus d in left has tons of value but that's not what he's gonna get paid for.

Over the next two or three years I feel Cespedes is going to start hitting a very hard wall. He hasn't come close to posting his rookie year on base and we're now going on 5years in. Doesn't look good long term for whoever gives him the likely 7 year deal.

I think Detroit and Upton is really great fit.

[Evil Vito]

<font color=goldenrod>The Dodgers/Chapman trade is now on hold. Chapman allegedly involved in a domestic violence situation this fall.</font>

[Emperor Smeat]

Cubs Kris Bryant filed a grievance against the team with the reason due to the service time clause in his contract. Team knew going as far back as May that he had filed a complaint with it becoming public today.

The dispute stems from the team's insistence that Bryant needed more seasoning in the minor leagues and keeping him there, thus preventing him from being eligible for free agency after the 2020 season. Because Bryant spent the first eight games at Triple-A Iowa, he won't be eligible for free agency until after the 2021 season. He was called up on the first day after the deadline.

[screech]

If Verlander pitches like he did to close the season, Tigers fans will be all-in on Upton





...you meant Kate, right? :shifty:

100p

Everyone all-in on Kate Upton

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Yeah well Tony Lacava got J.A. Happ, suck on that

[road doggy dogg]

I didn't say he lacked power. I said he's in the wrong side of 30 and has little secondary skills to hello offset what is going to be a decline in power, his biggest trait.

He just put up his best year, at age 30. Maybe he's got one more year or two like this in the tank but It's unlikely. Obvious his plus d in left has tons of value but that's not what he's gonna get paid for.

Over the next two or three years I feel Cespedes is going to start hitting a very hard wall. He hasn't come close to posting his rookie year on base and we're now going on 5years in. Doesn't look good long term for whoever gives him the likely 7 year deal.

I think Detroit and Upton is really great fit.

I'm gonna have to strongly disagree on this one... I do agree that a 6 or 7 year deal would be foolhardy though

[weather vane]

I hate when everybody thinks at 33 all of a sudden you suck.

The Mets don't make the playoffs without Cespedes. Well didn't hurt that the Nats had the worst management. They have unreal pitching and a TERRIBLE offense. Going to waste a lot of prime pitching years. Wilpons are the worst.

[Evil Vito]

<font color=goldenrod>If Cespedes were a perfect fit for the Mets and they chose not to sign him because they cheaped out, I'd be pissed off. But having seen the extremes of his game last year, I really just don't think he's that good of a fit long-term.

It's not even anything to do with thinking he'll get bad as he gets older. Grandy just had a fucking great year at 34. Cespedes can carry the team when on, but when he's cold he's basically invisible. Helplessly hacking at everything. From mid-September right through the World Series he was pretty well non-existent save for one game against the Cubs. And he doesn't have the range to play CF with regularity, which is what the Mets would need for him to do.

Will always appreciate what he did in August and the trade was totally worth it. But there are just too many holes in his game to put all your eggs in the Cespedes basket moving forward.</font>

[Damian Rey]

I hate when everybody thinks at 33 all of a sudden you suck.

The Mets don't make the playoffs without Cespedes. Well didn't hurt that the Nats had the worst management. They have unreal pitching and a TERRIBLE offense. Going to waste a lot of prime pitching years. Wilpons are the worst.

Except nobody is arguing what he did this year. The debate is whether or not anyone believes a one dimensional hitter is going to be worth a long term deal, and my opinion is no, he's not. He's going to get a monstrous deal to be close to what he was in year c two and three of his career, which is a good but not great player.

[Evil Vito]

<font color=goldenrod>Zobrist supposedly has narrowed his list down to the Mets, Nats, and Giants. Giants are viewed as longshots now because they'd want him to primarily play LF but he'd prefer to play the bulk of his time at 2B (with the flexibility to fill in elsewhere as needed due to injuries/off-days for other guys, of course).

Really hope the Mets' courting of him pays off, they've made it no secret to him that he's their top priority. The more I think of it the more I want him on the team. Not even worried about he's age. He's a young 35 since he didn't even get a full year in the bigs until he was 28.</font>

[weather vane]

Fair assessments. Who is going to carry that offense though? I personally wouldn't want Cespedes long term either. There is something to be said about a suitcase at that stage in his career.

It's just going to be sad to watch that pitching be wasted.

[Evil Vito]

Fair assessments. Who is going to carry that offense though? I personally wouldn't want Cespedes long term either. There is something to be said about a suitcase at that stage in his career.

It's just going to be sad to watch that pitching be wasted.

<font color=goldenrod>I don't think they need one guy to carry the team. They just need a better overall top-to-bottom lineup from the get-go. If they get Zobrist and Span they'd be looking at something like:

CF Span
RF Granderson
2B Zobrist
3B Wright
1B Duda
C d'Arnaud
LF Conforto
SS Flores

Maybe I'm crazy but I think they could actually compete with that. Duda may be the only bonafide power hitter in that group but in such a big park they really don't need a ton of sluggers. They need guys who can get on base and move the line along. That lineup won't scare you like the one with Murphy and Cespedes did, but it's still a far better one than they threw out there for the first 3 months of last season.

Also helps that I'm extremely high on Conforto. I could legit see him hitting out of the 3 hole at some point soon.

Plawecki, Tejada, Lagares, and Michael "highest paid bench coach in the league" Cadaver as your backups. Would love to see them bring back Kelly Johnson too.</font>

[screech]

I just pointed out how bad Brandon Phillips was despite having a 100 plus RBI season. If you looked solely at RBI you would think he had a good year. When you actually look at his own context neutral numbers you find that he was actually below average as a hitter and his RBI tally are completely misleading and, in his case, completely useless in observing his overall production.

That's why I didn't say to look just at RBI. My point is that to claim to want to see the whole picture, then ignore an entire stat doesn't make sense to me. If it's useless, why track it?

Pitchers pitching differently based on "fear" or lineup protection is largely false. The only thing ever determined when it's been studied at length is the "protected" batter might draw an extra walk or two or put an extra ball in play but the results on batted balls or overall outcomes of an bat weren't even marginally effected based on perceived "protection".

Not everything needs a number attached to it. In a big spot, a guy like Donaldson is going to warrant a different approach than Dominic Brown because he's just a more dangerous hitter and is more likely to come up with a big hit.

RISP is also a context dependant stat. It's also pretty useless. Matt Kemp drove in 100 runs. Based on what you guys are saying, he's an RBI guy and is adequately doing his job. Yet, he as barely league average offensively and with runners in scoring position was actually less than league average. It wasn't dramatically less but less is less. He hit an uninspired 270 with risp. Yet the 100 RBI lead you to believe he does his job or has some sort of skill in the position.

He really doesn't. He is just another example of a mediocre hitter slotted in one of the two best lineup spots to drive in runs, and league averaged his way to a high RBI count that doesn't tell you he actually wasn't very good at bat for at bat.

I get RBI has been staple of baseball stats that we've been conditioned to place importance in but it really isn't an important stat any more than pitcher wins. The guy driving in a run is just the beneficiary of a prime lineup position.

Not what I'm saying at all. Knocking in runs still matters, though, so you'd like to have a guy who can take advantage of his chances. Is it based on lineup spot and surrounding players? Sure, but you don't get put in the 3-4-5 hole for nothing.

The Yankees, the Rangers, the Astros, and the Nationals all failed to have even on player hit the heralded 100 RBI mark. 4 of the top ten teams in total runs scored. Two of this teams were in the top 3 in runs. But no 100 RBI guy. The mvp of the national league fell short. He wasn't anywhere near the lead. You wouldn't discredit him for not even being in the top ten in RBI right? You wouldn't discredit Mike Trout because at least ten guys finished with more RBI right? Would you say those guys were better than him?

You seem to be making assumptions here. I never discredited anyone or said anyone was better based on RBI. What I said was RBI carries at least a bit of weight because you still need someone to get runs home. I never said a team needed a guy with 100 RBI, or that a player even needed that many to be considered good/great.

Gorgeous just stated "it could have to do with rest of the team" if a great middle of the order bat only drives 70. That's exactly what an RBI is. It's a "what the rest of my team did prior to me getting an at bat" stat.

And I didn't dispute that, so I'm not sure why you're mentioning it. It's still a part of the equation, even though there are now more parts to examine.

[screech]

Should put a Kalyx Triad post warning on there. Seemed like such a good way to do it.

Damn you, discussion forum.

[ClockShot]

If I were the Dodgers I'd just back out of the Chapman trade. With all the bullshit going on in the NFL with Greg Hardy and Ray Rice, last thing you need is a distraction.

[screech]

I'm reading about that stuff now, hadn't heard about it before. Seems like there were a lot of conflicting stories about what happened.

Allegedly she found something on his phone. She says he choked her, "but didn't prevent her from breathing," but police didn't find any redness on her neck. He says he poked her on the shoulder/neck area to say "don't talk to me that way." His driver says Chapman then locked himself in the garage and fired eight shots with his handgun. Then his driver wouldn't talk to police again.

That's according to the report on Yahoo. Seems wacky/terrible any way you look at it. And I agree, ClockShot, I wouldn't want that mess (despite how great Chapman is).

[road doggy dogg]

From a baseball/moral standpoint I would absolutely love if something wacky like this would let me sign him for 1/2 his value now.

But from a 2015 standpoint, unfortunately will probably have to avoid this one since people are morons and will make #Social #Media posts about it all offseason long

[screech]

Clubs have yet to confirm, but reportedly STL and SD made a deal.

Cardinals get: Jedd Gyorko

Padres get: John Jay

We now go live to Damian Rey for his thoughts.

[Evil Vito]

<font color=goldenrod>Cardinals will get the better end of that deal, just like they always do.</font>

[screech]

Jay was injured a bunch last year too, wasn't he?

[Frank Drebin]

Cubs Kris Bryant filed a grievance against the team with the reason due to the service time clause in his contract. Team knew going as far back as May that he had filed a complaint with it becoming public today.

This will go nowhere. Boras pushed for this (does he rep Franco too?) but isn't a frivolous idiot. This is posturing for the next negotiations in the collective bargaining agreement. Every team currently does this and are well within their right to do so.

[screech]

Franco is represented by Ryan Royster, who likely moonlights as the lead guitarist for Frank Drebin and The Anal Mess.

[Damian Rey]

Hi screech! I'm live on the scene at the winters meeting from my couch with the fallout of the deal that sends Jed Gyorko to St Louis for Jon Jay.

Good deal for the Padres solely for the fact that they get out from under the $19 million owed to Gyorko over the next three years. Also opens the door for former first round pick Corey Spangenberg to helm second base full time. Spangenberg's combination of speed, defense, and contact approach at the plate lead to a 2 WAR season over 108 games.

Jay also seemingly fills a platoonspot in center. He's a contact oriented hitter who has a career 287 hitter and 350 plus on base with adequate, maybe better defense.

Jay is pretty much a stop gap but the Padres needed a lefty bat and the fact Jay can play respectable defense in center is a plus, as they now have a decent platoon between Jay and Upton, Melvin.

It's clearly a salary dump but a productive one at least.

[Damian Rey]

Really don't see how Gyorko fits with the cards. He's not starting over Wong at second, he's sure as shit not starting over Carpenter at third either. So now he's a moderately extensive backup/platoon player with no real position and 2.5 years of futility.

Maybe he progresses to become an average regularly (roughly 2 WAR) but I don't see him suddenly breaking out when playing time is already limited.

[screech]

Can he play anywhere else? Or might he get flipped?

Clearly I know a ton about him.

[Damian Rey]

He really doesn't play second base well and he's seen minimal time elsewhere. I'd be stunne if they could flip his contract. $19 million for a below average hitter with no position is a tough sell.

[Evil Vito]

<font color=goldenrod>Zobrist reportedly has a 4 year, $80 million offer on the table.

Welp...if it's true I guess I can scratch him off the list. I was actually okay with giving him the 4th year, but a $20M/year valuation on him is insane. I'm guessing the Nats were the team to give him that offer.

That'll probably do it for the Mets' 2B search, too. Unless Murph's market completely collapses and he can be had for like a 1 or 2 year deal late in the offseason, I really don't see a better option than just hoping Dilson Herrera works out.</font>

[Evil Vito]

<font color=goldenrod>Could just be the usual bullshit that reporters make up during winter meetings, too.

Hope so. I've kinda gotten my hopes up on Zobrist now so I don't wanna be let down.</font> :(

[Evil Vito]

<font color=goldenrod>In seemingly unrelated news, the price of domestic draft beer at Citi Field has risen from $8.75 to $358.75</font>

[screech]

He really doesn't play second base well and he's seen minimal time elsewhere. I'd be stunne if they could flip his contract. $19 million for a below average hitter with no position is a tough sell.

It can't hurt to give it the old college try. That's expensive for a backup.

[Damian Rey]

It is.

And I agree Vito. $20 million is a lot. Supposedly $7 million is what one WAR is worth, so in theory, it's not really that outlandish given how good Zobrist has been even this past season, which was maybe his worst in a while, he's still likely a $15, maybe $20 million player for a couple of years, but probably not 3 and certainly not 4.

[weather vane]

<font color=goldenrod>I don't think they need one guy to carry the team. They just need a better overall top-to-bottom lineup from the get-go. If they get Zobrist and Span they'd be looking at something like:

CF Span
RF Granderson
2B Zobrist
3B Wright
1B Duda
C d'Arnaud
LF Conforto
SS Flores

Maybe I'm crazy but I think they could actually compete with that. Duda may be the only bonafide power hitter in that group but in such a big park they really don't need a ton of sluggers. They need guys who can get on base and move the line along. That lineup won't scare you like the one with Murphy and Cespedes did, but it's still a far better one than they threw out there for the first 3 months of last season.

Also helps that I'm extremely high on Conforto. I could legit see him hitting out of the 3 hole at some point soon.

Plawecki, Tejada, Lagares, and Michael "highest paid bench coach in the league" Cadaver as your backups. Would love to see them bring back Kelly Johnson too.</font>

That line up is not good.

[ClockShot]

Yankees & Cubs are working on something involving Starlin Castro.

I honestly don't think he's the solution to our shortstop problem.

[Damian Rey]

No but he could be a solution to the second base problem.

[Evil Vito]

That line up is not good.

<font color=goldenrod>You don't think so? I mean to each their own but I can see why it'd be good. You'd have a speedy leadoff guy in Span, the veteran trio of Grandy/Zobrist/Wright to give you stability in the middle of the lineup, your power guy in Duda, d'Arnaud and Flores above-average hitters for their positions, and a budding star in Conforto.

I mean yeah it's not a strong lineup compared to the loaded ones you typically see in the AL, but I feel like that group would get the Mets enough runs to support their pitching and win a lot of games in the mostly weak NL East.

Feeling less optimistic about Zobrist now, though :( the 4 year/$80 million deal was said to be false, but now it's confirmed that the Cubs have jumped in. Zobrist and Maddon are really tight. Feel like he's going to pick them. Bollocks.</font>

[Evil Vito]

<font color=goldenrod>And just as I say that, there it is. 4 years, $56 million. Zobrist to the Cubs. Fuck.</font>

[Evil Vito]

<font color=goldenrod>Feel like this makes the Mets look really bad tbh. Went out of their way to declare he was their top guy on the board and still couldn't land him in favor of him going to a team that right now has about 5 million infielders.

I know the Cubs will trade some guys to free up room for him, but still. Fuck. Dilson Herrera better be the real deal or this was a huge miss by Mets brass.</font>

[ClockShot]

Zobrist reportedly has a 4 year, $80 million offer on the table.


Mets should have just ran with this.

[Frank Drebin]

Wow. World of possibilities on the trade front now.

[Evil Vito]

<font color=goldenrod>Castro to the Yankees now agreed upon pending medical review.</font>

[Frank Drebin]

w00t

[Evil Vito]

<font color=goldenrod>It's Starlin Castro for Adam Warren, apparently.

Waiting to see if there's more to it. If not then WTFFFFFF @ the Yankees being able to pry an All Star SS away for basically nothing.</font>

[poopfromweiner dude]

YANKS BABY

[poopfromweiner dude]

I like Warren a lot (no evidence to support), but he feels replaceable in a still strong bullpen, and *as a Yankees fan* I like that they're always making moves. I appreciate that they're not the lame ass Mets

Castro is cool, now to Frank Drubben to tell me why he's not...

Will Warren get a chance to compete for a rotation slot?

[ClockShot]

Rotation was a bit of a log jam. I can see Warren being the odd man out and sending him out. Castro's nice. I guess he's an improvement over Sir Didi, although Didi figured it out the 2nd half of the season.

[poopfromweiner dude]

Didi #1 love in my heart forever

Castro can move his ass over...

[ClockShot]

D-Backs get Shelby Miller from the Braves for Ender Inciarte and a few others.

Arizona ain't screwing around. Got themselves another good arm. Although, this trend is almost like the Padres last season. And look how that turned out.

[DaveWadding]

Inciarte, Aaron Blair and 2015 #1 overall pick Lieutenant Dansby Swanson

[Evil Vito]

<font color=goldenrod>Mets reportedly "shellshocked" from losing out on Zobrist and thought they had it in the bag. They have no real backup plan at 2B and will just go with Herrera unless Murphy's price drops.

Oh and of course the Yankees played a big role in proceedings too, Cubs don't sign Zobrist if they can't find a suitor for Castro first. So they at least played a hand in dicking the Mets over.

lol. as if the World Series wasn't a reminder, I'm gradually remembering what it feels like to be a Met fan again. :( somebody tell me it's going to be ok</font>

[Damian Rey]

Nice trade for both Atlanta and Arizona.

Az gets the number two they were in the market for, even if it means they their shortstop of the future who could've contributed as soon as next year.

Atlanta gets their shortstop of the future, and another arm to add to the two they got in dealing Simmons.

[DaveWadding]

Read on Twitter that DBacks were discussing Jose Fernandez deal. Would have included Pat Corbin AND Lt. Dans. This is way better than that from a cost perspective, at least.

[Frank Drebin]

Arizona is gonna be that team that adds a bunch of studs and gets off to a slow start, everyone panics before they start playing better in June.

[Droford]

Something tells me there's not a market for Chris Davis to get a monster deal and he ends up staying in Baltimore. I can't see him taking less to go elsewhere

I do wish they could find a starter for the rotation though

[DaveWadding]

Did I mention the DBacks pitching was a tire fire last year? Hopefully the Miller trade (vs. a Leakee Mike signing) frees up a little cash money to get a couple decent bullpen arms.

[Frank Drebin]

Castro is cool, now to Frank Drubben to tell me why he's not...

Will Warren get a chance to compete for a rotation slot?

Castro is a guy with tons of unfulfilled potential. Those 300 batting averages are all hollow as fuck. I swear to god, 9 out of 10 base hits I saw from him this year were dribblers through the infield just hit in between defenders. Terrible pitch selection at the plate. Swung at 36.2% of pitches out of the zone he saw. Embarrassing mental miscues in the field. Used to happen when he was 19-20 and everyone was like "hes just a kid" but it never stopped happening. If it wasnt for playing well in a part time role in August/September he would have totally tanked his value. I honestly thought his value was at the point where he needed to be part of a package in order to trade him. He also apparently loves to party and not spend alot of time "honing his craft" which might explain his lack of growth as a player.

Despite all this, he's still only 26 and his contract isn't the worst (2016: $7M, 17: $9M, 18: $10M, 19: $11M, 20: $16M club option ($1M buyout)) and he is supposedly a decent enough guy in the clubhouse so in theory he still may be able to get better but he may just be what he is: a pretty decent defensive infielder who will hit 270 with a 310 OBP and hit 12-15 HR.

I think Warren gets a chance to start as the Cubs really have no one past the current projected starting 5. They need a couple of those guys who could pitch out of the pen and take over a spot in the rotation in case of an injury and maybe grow into the role as a guy like Lackey fades or retires.

[Damian Rey]

Read a renowned scout's take on the the Arizona/Atlanta, advising Atlanta just fleeced Arizona for a good not great #2 starting pitcher.

[DaveWadding]

Lt. Dans is the 2nd coming of Chipper Jones. They totally got fucked. But win now moves!

[Evil Vito]

<font color=goldenrod>Apparently Zobrist's deal with the Cubs was agreed upon on Monday night but both sides were able to actually keep their mouths shut while the physicals were going on.

Meanwhile on Tuesday, John Ricco very publicly said that Zobrist being a Met was good as done. Collins held a press conference in which he said he envisioned Zobrist batting second. Jeff Wilpon flew to the winter meetings to make the official signing announcement. Yet the whole time, the Cubs knew they had already landed him.

What a fucking disaster for the Mets. They are the only team in baseball that this shit happens to. It's like the Gomez non-trade all over again.</font>

[road doggy dogg]

Lowe deal updated, $11m over the two years instead of $13m, seems a bit better... yeah... go Tigers

[Frank Drebin]

Happy to replace castro with zobrist, but I'm very confused by the signing. I get it in that it gives you flexibility on the field and that's exactly the kind of bat they need in the lineup and whatnot but it really goes against the MO of the braintrust to sign a 35 year old to a multi year deal that includes a no trade clause. They still need a CF unless they honestly think Javy Baez can play there. Took a big gamble that any issues zobrist had last year were injury related and that a 35 year old can pick up where he left off.

[Damian Rey]

Great points Frank. I know Zobrist is versatile but really with the knee injury he may be limited to just second. I wouldn't be stunned if Baez is still moved to upgrade in centerfield.

[screech]

Phillies sign David Hernandez to a one year deal, "showing interest" in Doug Fister.

I'm good with the signing and would be good with Fister. Definite upgrades, even if they're not earth-shattering moves.

[screech]

Perusing MLB Trade Rumors re: Jose Fernandez. Marlins want teams to really unload for him. I get it, but these are some steep "offers."

Apparently they wanted at least Pederson, Urias, and Seager from the Dodgers.

[road doggy dogg]

I honestly don't even get it. You have one of the brightest young pitchers in the league, arguably like the hottest type of commodity you could want in baseball, and you're actively trying to get rid of him... seems like such a Marlins thing to do

[Frank Drebin]

Fernandez is gonna be the new guy who has trade rumors swirl around him for the next two years as the Marlins see if anyone is dumb enough to empty the farm for him until it's time to actually think hard about dealing him.

[Frank Drebin]

I honestly don't even get it. You have one of the brightest young pitchers in the league, arguably like the hottest type of commodity you could want in baseball, and you're actively trying to get rid of him... seems like such a Marlins thing to do

You could argue that his value isn't going to get much higher than it is now, so exploring trade opportunities isn't out of the question.

[screech]

You could argue that his value isn't going to get much higher than it is now, so exploring trade opportunities isn't out of the question.

Sure, but the simpler and maybe more likely explanation is that we're talking about the Marlins.

[Frank Drebin]

Probably. Just playing devils advocate. It does make sense to at least put out feelers just in case.

[Damian Rey]

Always have to evaluate one self objectively. Maybe the Marlins feel they don't currently have enough around Fernandez to compete over the next three years. Trading him for a number of pieces to help turn them around sooner isn't a bad idea.

That being said, it is the Marlins.

[Nicky Fives]

I'd trade Fernandez in a second, but I'd have to get at least 2 elite players back in return, not to mention a high level prospect for the future....

[Evil Vito]

<font color=goldenrod>The Shelby Miller trade has made Fernandez virtually unattainable. They have every right to ask for the moon for him to see if some team jumps.

He'd figure to be almost a lock to be unloaded before the end of his deal, but they'll settle for a more "realistic" package in return the closer he gets to free agency.</font>

[weather vane]

Vito this is my thoughts almost exactly about the Mets.

http://www.barstoolsports.com/newyork/mets-miss-on-zobrist-castro-what-now/

[Evil Vito]

<font color=goldenrod>That's all very fair. As I said I thought the lineup would have been good to go with Zobrist and Span. But now Zobrist is gone and the Cubs are apparently jumping in on Span too, so I have little reason to think the Mets will outbid the Cubs for him.

This offseason now has "Asdrubal Cabrera and a random reliever for 2 years, $8 million and that's it" written all over it, and that's a fucking shame.</font>

[Evil Vito]

<font color=goldenrod>I'd toss Neil Walker in as a potential trade option for the Mets. Pirates apparently want to shed his salary, he'd plug 2B for a year without blocking Herrera for the long-term.

But I expect it'd go much like the article said with the Castro deal. Bucs would ask for one of Thor/Matz/Wheeler for Walker, Mets would justifiably say no, and then they'd move Walker elsewhere for a far lesser price.

If I'm the Pirates/Cubs/Cards/Dodgers/Giants/D-Backs, basically anybody in the NL who can realisitically contend for a title next year, I wouldn't be too keen to help the Mets out either. It's known that if they get back to the playoffs they'll immediately be one of the favorites solely due to the pitching. Why do something that could help them even get back to the playoffs in the first place?</font>

[Nicky Fives]

Mets might be able to get Aaron Hill out of ARZ....

[Emperor Smeat]

Dodgers considering making a deal with the Yankees to get Andrew Miller as a backup plan to the Chapman trade that might be getting voided soon.

[screech]

Clubs haven't confirmed, but MLB at bat just said Mets and Pirates reportedly made a deal.

Pirates get: John Niese

Mets get: Neil Walker

[ClockShot]

Pretty good get for the Mets to make up for missing out on Zobrist. Walker got quiet strength. Can hit a few homers if he gets in a groove.

[Damian Rey]

See Vito? If you just relax and let things play out they turn out ok. Walker steps in nicely as a one year fix who probably gets offered and declines a qualifying offer next year. So they get an above average hitter and possibly a first round pick.

Pretty good move.

[Evil Vito]

<font color=goldenrod>Love that trade. I like Zobrist more as a player, but I do really like that Walker isn't going to block Herrera long-term.

Also, Niese was wonderful out of the bullpen in the playoffs but as a starter I didn't have much faith in him anymore. They can always use a Rafael Montero/Logan Verrett type out of the bullpen OR, my personal preference, bring back Bartolo for a year and put him in the pen once Wheeler is healthy. I love that big fat bastard.</font>

[road doggy dogg]

Tigers trade two prospects for Justin Wilson from the Yankees

@NYY fans, what should I expect outta this guy? I'm glad Tigers filled a glaring need (LHP outta the 'pen) but don't know much about him

[ClockShot]

Lefty specialist bullpen arm who's pretty good with batters on both sides of the plate. Had an good year. Got him from the trade with Pittsburgh when we sent them Frankie Cervelli.

He'll be your setup man to your brand new K-Rod.

[road doggy dogg]

good shit

Avila is shaping up to be the best

[ClockShot]

Heh heh. One of the guys we're getting back is one of the Mets pieces from the Cespedes trade. Talk about going full circle.

[Evil Vito]

<font color=goldenrod>Phillies make it known that they will be selecting OF Tyler Goeddel from the Rays with the top pick of tomorrow's Rule 5 draft. First round pick back in 2011, transitioned from a career infielder to the outfield this year. Could be a good get for a Phillies team clearly still entrenched in rebuild mode.

Probably going to be lots of arms taken in the draft as per usual. It's basically just a fairly inexpensive $50k dice roll to see if you can get a guy who can stick to a big league bullpen spot all year. RHP Corey Black (Cubs) and LHP Onelki Garcia (LHP) lead the names of arms expected to be taken.

Wouldn't mind seeing the Mets grab Jake Cave from the Yankees. Lefty hitting CF, gives the Mets a platoon fallback option in case they can't sign Span or Parra. Not sure he'll make it to the Mets' pick at #24 tho.</font>

[Evil Vito]

<font color=goldenrod>Speaking of the Phillies...

Phillies get: RHP Vincent Velasquez, LHP Brett Oberholtzer, OF Derek Fisher
Astros get: RHP Ken Giles</font>

[screech]

Bummed to see Giles go, but a v good closer on a (probably) 90-loss team.

Gotta look ahead and they 100p need pitching depth, so :y:

[Droford]

Tigers trade two prospects for Justin Wilson from the Yankees

@NYY fans, what should I expect outta this guy? I'm glad Tigers filled a glaring need (LHP outta the 'pen) but don't know much about him

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/2f/e5/03/2fe50303ed873364bee23fd3357c46f4.jpg

[road doggy dogg]

I have literally no idea what that post means

[McLegend]

<font color=goldenrod>Anything that gives me another excuse to watch this is a wonderful thing.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/FhKYSs42K1s" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Doubt Citi Field will ever hear that kind of heat again. Love how it goes from mild boos for the jobber players, to louder ones for Greinke/Kershaw, and then Utley just gets absolute nuclear heat to the point where they have to keep the camera on him longer.</font>

World Series ring

[Evil Vito]

<font color=goldenrod>Mets continue to shore up their middle infield, inking Asdrubal Cabrera to a 2-year, $18.5 million deal.

I'm pretty shocked by this. Once they traded for Walker I just assumed it'd be back to being a Flores/Tejada timeshare at SS. But now both of those guys appear to be backups. And with Wright likely to need a good amount of offdays with his spinal stenosis, it's good to have some depth.

Now just grab Span or Parra and I think they'll be ready to roll offensively. Feel way better about things than I did 24 hours ago.</font>

[Droford]

I have literally no idea what that post means

Thats legendary cajun chef Justin Wilson.

[road doggy dogg]

incredible

[Damian Rey]

Good pickup for Mets fans. Cabrera isn't great defensively but he's a decent enough bat to give them a moderate upgrade at short.

[RoXer]

you guys are such unbelievable cunts when it comes to Droford and sports... what is it about sports that makes people entirely unbearable

[road doggy dogg]

How long have you been sitting on that for?

[road doggy dogg]

And I don't really feel like my post was a senseless pile-on for him, he legit posted a meme of some dude I never seen before...... but keep it up

[Evil Vito]

Good pickup for Mets fans. Cabrera isn't great defensively but he's a decent enough bat to give them a moderate upgrade at short.

<font color=goldenrod>Cabrera actually manages to somehow be worse defensively than what they already had...but it's nice to beef up the lineup. Of equal importance is that they now have depth on the infield. I expect Flores to get starts at 2B, SS, and now 3B and still see plenty of ABs in his "everyman" role.

I figure Cabrera got money that had been set aside for Zobrist since Walker and Niese's salaries basically cancel out. That SHOULD mean the Mets will still have the money to move on Span or Parra.</font>

[Damian Rey]

Cabrera was worth more as a ss than Tejada and Flores as an aggregate. It's a solid pickup.

I'm not in on Span. Injury issues limited him and his skill set doesn't age well. They're much improved up the middle. Maybe Lagares gets healthy enough to return to form. That by itself would keep them going.

[road doggy dogg]

Oh thank god... Lawrie traded to the White Sox. When I heard that Tigers were one of the teams interested I had a bad bad feeling

[Evil Vito]

Cabrera was worth more as a ss than Tejada and Flores as an aggregate. It's a solid pickup.

I'm not in on Span. Injury issues limited him and his skill set doesn't age well. They're much improved up the middle. Maybe Lagares gets healthy enough to return to form. That by itself would keep them going.

<font color=goldenrod>I was thinking of Span primarily as a 1 year deal with a vesting option or something. They could use speed at the top of the lineup and he'd be a really good platoon partner with Lagares.

The BBTN crew just ripped the Mets, Schilling in particular. Saying they didn't get all that much better today and they still need a 30 HR bopper in the middle of the order to get back to the playoffs. I don't think he realizes that the Mets' only real vacancy now is at CF, and with the exception of Heyward who is asking for like a 10 year deal, none of the other traditional middle of the order guys seem suited for CF.

You don't need to look much further than the Royals to show you don't need to have a feature piece in your lineup. No one individual player in that group scares you. It's just a bunch of good hitters in a row. It's not rocket science.</font>

[Damian Rey]

Honestly haven't watched the hacks on BBTN since mlb network's debut. The only espn guy like is Keith Law because he's objective and doesn't use hyperbole.

I think adding Cabrera was a decent move that now gives them depth. Walker has been worth near 4 more WAR than Murphy the last 5 years, and was as good as him last year. Worst case scenario is Walker provides equal value. Can't think it was a bad move if he steps right in and matches last year.

Cabrera is just better than what they have. The pitching is insane and even if Lagares is only a defense player, they still have a full season of Conforto, which will aid them greatly.

I like their offseason thus far.

[Evil Vito]

<font color=goldenrod>Rule 5 results in:

1. Phillies (37): Tyler Goeddel, OF (Rays)
2. Reds (35): Jake Cave, OF (Yankees)
3. Braves (39): Evan Rutckyj, LHP (Yankees)
4. Rockies (39): Luis Perdomo, RHP (Cardinals)
5. Brewers (34): Colin Walsh, 1B (Athletics)
6. Athletics (38): Jabari Blash, OF (Mariners) — apparently traded to Padres
7. Marlins (38): No Selection
8. Padres (36): Josh Martin, RHP (Indians)
9. Tigers (40): No Selection
10. White Sox (38): No Selection
11. Mariners (40): No Selection
12. Red Sox (40): No Selection
13. D-backs (40): No Selection
14. Rays (40): No Selection
15. Orioles (39): Joey Rickard, OF (Rays)
16. Indians (40): No Selection
17. Twins (40): No Selection
18. Nationals (37): No Selection
19. Giants (38): No Selection
20. Angels (34): Deolis Guerra, RHP (Pirates)
21. Astros (37): No Selection
22. Yankees (39): No Selection
23. Rangers (37): No Selection
24. Mets (39): No Selection
25. Dodgers (38): No Selection
26. Blue Jays (35): Joe Biangini, RHP (Giants)
27. Royals (39): No Selection
28. Cubs (39): No Selection
29. Pirates (38): No Selection
30. Cardinals (34): Matt Bowman, RHP (Mets)</font>

[Evil Vito]

<font color=goldenrod>Tony Sipp goes back to the Astros. 3 years, $18 million.

Blimey...I would have liked to have Sipp back but that feels like an awful lot for a good, not great, middle reliever. Good on him for managing to pull that kind of money.</font>

[Nicky Fives]

Rays lost some OF depth....Never heard of Biangini that Jays picked up, doubtful he'll not be returned....

[Damian Rey]

Rule 5 draft lost a lot of luster when they pushed the cutoff out an extra year. Unlikely you'll see the likes of Dan Uggla or Yohan Santana again.

[Frank Drebin]

Never understood how some of these teams could afford to tie up a spot on the 25 man roster all year for one of these guys. I remember the cubs drafted David Patton who had never pitched above A ball and just used him in garbage time. Eventually he got "hurt" and was on a minor league rehab for what felt like forever.

[Damian Rey]

The Padres have had moderate success in their rule 5 history. In the early 90s, the picked up Bip Roberts, who, despite injuries, was a solid contributor.

Everth Cabrera had a few decent seasons as well.

The guy they picked up from Oakland has 4A outfielder written all over him. Mid 20s who smashed minor league pitching. I doubt he sticks.

In other Padres news, Ken Rosenthal reports that the Padres and Braves are finishing up a deal that would send former top 100 catching prospect Christian Betancourt to San Diego.

If that deal goes down, the Padres then have 4 catchers who could take a spot on the big club in Norris, Hedges, recently claimed Josmil Pinto and now possibly Betancourt. I'd have to think Norris is being dealt if this move goes through.

[Evil Vito]

<font color=goldenrod>Last year was the most successful Rule 5 draft to date for what it was intended to do. Gave guys like Mark Canha, Delino DeShields, and Odubel Herrera a chance to play regularly. Moreover though, 9 of the 14 guys picked ended up getting a full year of big league pay (either from being on the 25 all year or on the DL). Additionally 2 of them served suspensions but are still with the teams that claimed them, with the Rule 5 restrictions still in place for next year. Guys who were stashed on the DL for long periods, like Daniel Winkler on the Braves, will still have the Rule 5 restrictions next year too.

I think your best bet to stick is to make it as a reliever though. Every team keeps at least 7 relievers at all times, so it's the cleanest route to try to earn a job.</font>

[Nicky Fives]

some OF/IF with speed will stick more on the NL side of things coming off the bench....Herrera in Philly had a pretty good season last year, probably not a starter on the better teams but he could turn out to be pretty valuable if he continues to develop with big-league experience....

[Evil Vito]

<font color=goldenrod>O's reportedly offered Chris Davis a 7-year, $150 million deal. Davis countered with a 8-year, $200 million demand. O's then retracted their offer altogether.

Good going there, Boras.</font>

[Damian Rey]

Some team will pony up the dough. For all we know, he may have upped the offer with the intention of scaring off Baltimore all together.

Davis could have a preference of teams he'd like to go to and perhaps Baltimore isn't one of them.

[screech]

some OF/IF with speed will stick more on the NL side of things coming off the bench....Herrera in Philly had a pretty good season last year, probably not a starter on the better teams but he could turn out to be pretty valuable if he continues to develop with big-league experience....

I'd be very happy to keep watching Herrera do baseball things here. Love that dude.

[ClockShot]

Jason Heyward got a $200 mil. offer on the table right now. The Nationals are gunning for him, but they weren't the ones who made the offer. Cubs & Cardinals are the front runners for his services.

[Droford]

The Os DFAed Junior Lake and signed Edgar Olmos who was released by the Cubs.

So that Tommy Hunter trade was pointless

[Damian Rey]

Well he was a career mediocre pitcher who wasn't very good. Not sure what you were expecting there.

[Frank Drebin]

Jake Arrieta

[Frank Drebin]

"Lol who would give Jason Hayward 200 mil? Lol. He has like 50 RBIs. Lol"

[Droford]

Sore point in perpetuity for Orioles

[Frank Drebin]

Droford, do you want Jake Arietta back?

The Os are fine in the SP department for now until Chen leaves for FA after this season .
also gonna lose Bud Norris but he's in the bullpen.

O's Starters had a 4.47 FIP, fourth worst in baseball. That's with Chen as their best pitcher.

[Frank Drebin]

Welcome to Chicago Jason Heyward. Wow

[Droford]

Orioles rotation looks like
Jiminez
Tillman
Gausman
Gonzalez
TBD FA (Kazmir or Gallardo?)

Kazmir is almost same as Chen if not a bit better with less HR and more Ks.

[screech]

Think he slots in at CF or do the Cubs make another move?

[Frank Drebin]

Both are possible. They have no room for baez as it stands....

[Frank Drebin]

V happy with this but interesting that they chose to spend big. It's been the downfall of the two previous regimes that they have a plan to build, then can't help but spend that big market money.

[Frank Drebin]

You could deal Baez for pitching I guess. Possibly push Hammel out of the rotation. Or he's part of a package that includes Hendricks and/or Soler or Schwarber that brings back a CF too.

Mega deal for Chris Sale and Adam Eaton? :)

Schwarber, Baez, Hendricks, Almora and a PTBNL?

[screech]

Jon Heyman reported the deal is less than $200million, and that the Nationals offered at or v close to that.

I'm interested to see what they do next. Soler has been linked to trade rumors, I'm thinking those pick up now.

[screech]

lol Sale and Eaton defecting would be nuts. Make it happen.

[screech]

Also I accidentally clicked on Facebook comments section on this deal. Hate everyone rn

[Frank Drebin]

Yeah. Everyone should take one look at the lineup and know that they have parts to move. You'd imagine it wouldn't take long for a deal to materialize under those circumstances but it's only December so they don't have to rush it. Could play the market and see who misses out on their FA choices.

[Evil Vito]

<font color=goldenrod>There's still plenty of offseason left but it's tough to see the Cubs not coming out of it looking like the team to beat in 2016.

We'll see how it plays out.</font>

[screech]

Agreed re: playing the market. Think it'd be better if they waited for at least Upton and Cespedes to sign. Someone will get "desperate" after they go.

[screech]

Deal is reportedly 8/$184 per MLB. Club hasn't confirmed.

[Damian Rey]

Wow Frank and I were pretty close to what Heyward actually got paid. Wonder what the Padres have to give up to acquire either or both of Soler and Baez.

[screech]

Flip John Jay? Haha

[Evil Vito]

<font color=goldenrod>So that leaves Upton and Cespedes as the big outfielders left on the market. Cards and Nats were supposedly the other two teams that went in on Heyward, so it's fair to think the Cards and Nats will be in on the other two.

I know I said Cespedes probably won't be worth what he ends up getting paid, but I'll probably cry if he is wearing a Nats uniform next year :'( especially if he ends up going for less than expected (like 4 years, $85 million)</font>

[Emperor Smeat]

Cards rumored to be going after Alex Gordon to replace Jason Heyward. Also looking at Chris Davis and Rockies' Carlos Gonzalez as possible replacement options.

[Frank Drebin]

Seph has to eat a shit brick.

[screech]

Per Ken Rosenthal on the tweeter, Heyward can opt out after 3 or 4 years, depending on "certain plate appearance thresholds."

For what it's worth, ESPN projecting Schwarber/Heyward/Soler from left to right.

[screech]

Are the Rockies still actively trying to move Gonzalez? Or does he still want out, rather?

[Emperor Smeat]

Seems to be more on the Rockies side for trading. A big chunk of money is still owed to him but he's also at his highest value for them right now. Market for him and his position has been hot this offseason.

They could risk keeping him for next season hoping he plays even better but could also backfire big time and they'd get stuck with $37 million in dead weight.

[Evil Vito]

<font color=goldenrod>I'd be hard pressed to blame CarGo if he still wants out. That franchise is a trainwreck.</font>

[Damian Rey]

If Cespedes goes to the Nats, Vito can bask in the glory of a 250/300 avg/un base hitter who can't draw enough walks or make enough contact into his mid 30s to go yard.

It'll all be ok Vito.

[road doggy dogg]

Cespedes is awesome.

[Frank Drebin]

Think of all the awsome throws he's going to make after misplaying the ball.

[Nicky Fives]

Reports show that Tommy Hanson dies with booze and blow in his system..... not a huge surprise when an athlete dies....

[Damian Rey]

Or all "TEH RIBBIES" he's gonna leave on base because he has awful plate discipline.

If Albert Pujols hit the wall as hard as he did, arguably the greatest hitter of his time, what makes anyone think a one trick pony like Cespedes is going to age and decline gracefully?

[screech]

His can-do attitude and will to win?

[Evil Vito]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CV_MRQVVAAAVb70.jpg

<font color=goldenrod>I just checked myself and this is actually on the Mets transaction page as of right now. If fucking only.</font> :(

[road doggy dogg]

Cespedes is awesome.

[Evil Vito]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CV_MRQVVAAAVb70.jpg

<font color=goldenrod>I just checked myself and this is actually on the Mets transaction page as of right now. If fucking only.</font> :(

<font color=goldenrod>HOLY FUCK IT'S TRUE!!!</font> :eek:

[Evil Vito]

<font color=goldenrod>I have to give it up for Cuddy. It remains to be seen if the Mets will be paying any portion of his contract as a buyout (I'd be somewhat surprised if he didn't get SOMETHING), but odds are he's still going to be leaving the bulk of his 2016 salary on the table. He could have simply slogged it through 2016 as a backup making $12.5 million, but he chose not to. Shades of Gil Meche retiring with a year left on his deal.

Much as I didn't like watching him play this year, I've heard nothing but good things of him as a teammate. Never complained when he was relegated to backup duty after the rise of Conforto. Mets have a bench coach vacancy and Collins has said he felt Cuddy is a manager in waiting somewhere...who knows, maybe he'll be with the team in a different capacity next year.

More importantly, this gives the Mets some more 2016 budget room to work with if they want to be more aggressive with Cespedes or maybe even Upton.</font>

[Frank Drebin]

Remember when you guys (other than Damian Ray were like "lol no way is Jason Heyward worth 200 mil"?

[Damian Rey]

My uncle recently argued with me Heyward wasn't a star and that he wasn't worth the money. The easy counter was why are three of the best front offices in baseball trying to pay him like one?

[Evil Vito]

<font color=goldenrod>I would have loved to have seen the Mets make a run at Heyward. I knew they wouldn't because the total price tag would have been heavy, but I was always under the assumption that there'd be an opt-out clause involved meaning the actual commitment was much less.

Unless Heyward falls off a cliff in 2018, you can pretty safely assume he'll be hitting the market again at 29. Opt out clauses are the new thing for marquee free agents. We'll probably only see it more frequently as the years go by.</font>

[Evil Vito]

<font color=goldenrod>Steve Cishek to the Mariners. 2 years, $10 million.

All of a sudden the reliever market is looking really barren. Basically any reliever of any sort of name value has gotten multiple years and at least $10 million. Speaks to how important the late innings are now.</font>

[DaveWadding]

<font color=goldenrod> Shades of Gil Meche retiring with a year left on his deal.</font>

Can you guys believe we're finally at the point where the FA market is so insane that 5 years and 55 mil for Gil Fucking Meche seems reasonable?

[Evil Vito]

<font color=goldenrod>If you think it's crazy now, wait until the 2018 offseason. Factoring in potential free agents and guys with opt-out clauses, all of the following could be up for grabs:

Josh Donaldson
Jose Fernandez
Bryce Harper
Matt Harvey
Jason Heyward
Clayton Kershaw
Dallas Keuchel
Manny Machado
Andrew McCutchen
David Price</font>

[Damian Rey]

Jesus. Bryce Harper is going to get the next Arod level contract. I'm calling 10 years $300 mil.

The Angels looks like geniuses for locking up Trout to a now ridiculously cheap contract for the best player in the game.

[Droford]

<font color=goldenrod>If you think it's crazy now, wait until the 2018 offseason. Factoring in potential free agents and guys with opt-out clauses, all of the following could be up for grabs:

Josh Donaldson
Jose Fernandez
Bryce Harper
Matt Harvey
Jason Heyward
Clayton Kershaw
Dallas Keuchel
Manny Machado
Andrew McCutchen
David Price</font>

Manny isn't going anywhere..he'll get an extension soon

[Damian Rey]

Highly unlikely.

[Emperor Smeat]

Astros and Phillies trade involved 7 players swapping teams:

The final trade is Ken Giles and Jonathan Arauz to Houston in exchange for pitchers Thomas Eshelman, Brett Oberholtzer, Vince Velasquez, Mark Appel and Harold Arauz to Philadelphia.

[Damian Rey]

Moving Appel could blow up on Houston. As great as Giles is, a reliever throwing one inning is only going to provide so much value. Appel could be a 3 starter and provide more value.

Screech should be happy with this package. Also love that the new Phillies front office realizes you don't need a dominant closer as part of a massive rebuild.

[Frank Drebin]

Yeah. One of the cubs first moves was dealing 7th inning guy Sean Marshall for 3 prospects. You should have heard call in radio shows. "Whadr we gonna do witout Sean marshall??" Stupid. Bullpen guys are a luxury a contending team would want. Not the rebuilding Phillies.

I haven't checked in on Appell in a while. Is he still a bust or does he still have a chance to make a ML rotation?

[Damian Rey]

He's inconsistent and as a result, so are his numbers, but he's still projecting to be a major league starter. Whether that's going to be top of the rotation or middle to back end is the question.

I remember Padres fans fuming when they let Trevor Hoffman and Heath Bell walk, traded Mike Adams, Huston Street and Craig Kimbrel. People will never learn and it's easier for talking heads to claim relievers are these huge assets instead of reading up that they're really not and, as the Royals proved, can be developed on the cheap.

[Emperor Smeat]

Seems more like bust territory in terms of top pick status at least according to Yahoo Sports and Baseball America although to be fair he's only played 2 seasons of minor league ball so far.

Phillies probably believed or were desperate for him to be a Strasburg-like player needing very little minor league time and instead he actually needs more time which is probably why they got rid of him this quickly.

[screech]

Moving Appel could blow up on Houston. As great as Giles is, a reliever throwing one inning is only going to provide so much value. Appel could be a 3 starter and provide more value.

Screech should be happy with this package. Also love that the new Phillies front office realizes you don't need a dominant closer as part of a massive rebuild.

I don't know much about any of the pitchers (haven't had the time to look em all up). But as much as I like Giles, I'm happy with this. The rotation is the worst part about the Phillies right now, so getting help there - even if it's not immediate - is a plus.

No need to have a good closer on a team that will probably lose at least 90. Let him have a chance to wreck shit in the playoffs.

[Evil Vito]

<font color=goldenrod>Braves and Phillies are killing it this offseason. Both are in total rebuild mode and rightly so, and both have brought in so many promising looking prospects.

While prospects are never a sure thing, there's every chance that those teams can be downright scary in a few years. All the more reason my Mets need to go all in on these next couple of seasons while they have their entire cost-controlled rotation in order.</font>

[screech]

Pete Rose's reinstatement application has been denied.

[Evil Vito]

<font color=goldenrod>Selig didn't want Rose back in baseball and was very outspoken about it. Manfred views Selig as his mentor and probably didn't want to immediately undo a suspension that Selig went out of his way to enforce.

Didn't really take an Einstein to see that Manfred wasn't going to reinstate him.</font>

[Nicky Fives]

JP Arencibia signs with Phillies.... still young, some MLB experience, tons of power and worth the gamble on a minor league deal.....

[Emperor Smeat]

<font color=goldenrod>Selig didn't want Rose back in baseball and was very outspoken about it. Manfred views Selig as his mentor and probably didn't want to immediately undo a suspension that Selig went out of his way to enforce.

Didn't really take an Einstein to see that Manfred wasn't going to reinstate him.</font>

Seems like the biggest issue MLB still has with Rose is his ties to gambling. They tried to tell him to stop gambling on baseball games to have a chance at being reinstated but supposedly he doesn't care about stopping.

[Nicky Fives]

To be fair, he's probably making more in betting than he could ever get from MLB.... and he strikes me as the type not to give two shits about his reputation....

[ClockShot]

Giants land Johnny Cueto. 6-years, $130 mil.

[Evil Vito]

<font color=goldenrod>Bumgarner
Cueto
Samardzija
Peavy
Cain

Even year prophecy

Congratulations Giants - 2016 World Series champions</font>

[Damian Rey]

I dunno about all that. Peavy is done, who knows what you're getting outta Cain and Samardzija isn't exactly top notch after last year.

I think they'll be very good though and wouldn't be surprised if they signed an outfielder like Gordon or Upton.

Dodger fan must be fuming. You had two huge names in Price and Greinke out there, along with Zimmerman and Cueto, and their front office has landed none of them.

They signed the living corpse of Chase Utley, an iffy Iwakuma, and I think that's been it. While I'm aware that the current regime isn't known for being overly aggressive, I'm stunned at the minimal activity on the Dodgers' end. Of course there are still pieces to be had but no way do they even come close to replacing Greinke and the big dogs are all off the board.

[Evil Vito]

<font color=goldenrod>Nope, Giants are winning it in 2016. Just as they will in 2018, 2020, 2022, and every other even year for the foreseeable future.</font>

http://reaction.club/r/61c493b51d862c39178f.gif

[Evil Vito]

<font color=goldenrod>Wow, Cueto's deal has an opt-out clause after only 2 years.

Feel like opt-out clauses can end up causing some serious shit for MLB down the road. Imagine if it reaches the point where all the big free agents have opt-out clauses after one season, so every year just becomes a battle of what team wants to offer the most frontloaded contract possible. The same players changing teams every year. Shit would be ridiculous.</font>

[Nicky Fives]

Will Middlebrooks going to SD, always liked him (despite my hatred for the BoSox) and if anyone could use a fresh start, its any member of the San Diego roster from last year....

[Damian Rey]

He got a fresh start when he came to San Diego. Middlebrooks' issue is he swings too much out of the zone and can't spell ball four. Changing scenery again isn't going to help.

As for opt out clauses, I think teams are more than happy to sign off one on them. The Sabathia deal has highlighted the risk in signing big names on the wrong side of 30.

For instance, James Shields has an opt out clause after this year. If he bounces back like I think he will, he could be the premier free agent pitcher in a dumpster fire of a free agent market.

That works for the Padres as they won't have to pay him $21 million a year into his mid 30s and Shields may get a longer an extra year or two out of the new contract.

I don't see it coming to a point of one and done. Though I had an idea of how a one and done could work for arbitration.

[Evil Vito]

<font color=goldenrod>bah gawd 3-way deal

Dodgers get: 2B Micah Johnson, RHP Frankie Montas, OF Trayce Thompson

Reds get: 2B Brandon Dixon, SS Jose Peraza, OF Scott Schebler

White Sox get: 3B Todd Frazier</font>

[SlickyTrickyDamon]

<font color=goldenrod>Nope, Giants are winning it in 2016. Just as they will in 2018, 2020, 2022, and every other even year for the foreseeable future.</font>

http://reaction.club/r/61c493b51d862c39178f.gif

Can't use a gif from a football show to decide baseball matters. DISQUALIFIED!

[Emperor Smeat]

Bartolo Colon and Mets agree on a 1 year, $7.25 million deal.

[Damian Rey]

Feel pretty underwhelmed for what the Reds got in return for Frazier. Peraza is a nice player, but he's s punches singles hitter who doesn't draw walks. For 2 years of a power hitting third baseman, that's not much if anything.

[Evil Vito]

<font color=goldenrod>Bartoloooooooooooooooooooooo</font> :love:

[Droford]

The Os signed an of from Korea..yay

[ClockShot]

Indians sign Mike Napoli and Rajai Davis to 1-year deals.

[road doggy dogg]

:wavesad: Rajai

that walkoff grand slam against the A's last year was one of my fav moments of the season

[Nicky Fives]

I'd take Rajai as my 4th OF any day of the week....It's hard not to love Bartolo.....

[ClockShot]

Rajai screwed me over for fantasy this season. I was expecting ALOT of steals, but he saw very minimal playing time. Hopefully a change of venue does the trick.

[road doggy dogg]

He was just a fun guy to watch. Perfect 4th OF IMO, don't ask too much of him but was great in short bursts

[Evil Vito]

Feel pretty underwhelmed for what the Reds got in return for Frazier. Peraza is a nice player, but he's s punches singles hitter who doesn't draw walks. For 2 years of a power hitting third baseman, that's not much if anything.

<font color=goldenrod>Moreover, the Dodgers are thought to have received a considerably better haul than what the Reds got, including Frankie Montas, clearly the best prospect in the trade.

Reds got fleeced.</font>

[Damian Rey]

I even question the Dodgers haul. But they made out better than Cincy.

[Evil Vito]

<font color=goldenrod>The Dodgers' disastrous offseason continues. Turns out Iwakuma failed his physical, so the signing was nixed and he's now re-signed with the Mariners on a 1 year deal with 2017 and 2018 vesting options.

Also the Reds and Nats have agreed to a Brandon Phillips trade, but Phillips is holding up for more money for him to waive his no-trade clause.</font>

[Evil Vito]

<font color=goldenrod>Some early 2016 World Series odds for the degenerate gamblers here. Aka Droford:

Chicago Cubs -- 6/1
San Francisco Giants -- 6/1
Boston Red Sox -- 9/1
Kansas City Royals -- 14/1
New York Mets -- 14/1
Los Angeles Dodgers -- 16/1
St. Louis Cardinals -- 16/1
Toronto Blue Jays -- 16/1
Houston Astros -- 18/1
Pittsburgh Pirates -- 18/1
Washington Nationals -- 18/1
Arizona Diamondbacks -- 20/1
Texas Rangers -- 20/1
Cleveland Indians -- 25/1
Detroit Tigers -- 25/1
Los Angeles Angels -- 25/1
New York Yankees -- 25/1
Seattle Mariners -- 33/1
Baltimore Orioles -- 50/1
Chicago White Sox -- 50/1
Minnesota Twins -- 50/1
Miami Marlins -- 66/1
Tampa Bay Rays -- 66/1
Milwaukee Brewers -- 75/1
Oakland Athletics -- 75/1
Atlanta Braves -- 100/1
Cincinnati Reds -- 100/1
Colorado Rockies -- 100/1
Philadelphia Phillies -- 100/1
San Diego Padres -- 100/1

Looks like the oddsmakers are buying into the Even Year Giants too. Not for nothing, but while I don't expect much from the Padres next year I'm pretty surprised they put them at the same level as the clear dumpster fire teams like the Phillies and Braves.</font>

[screech]

Gonna go worst to first! Wooooo!

[road doggy dogg]

What am I missing with the Red Sox? Yeah David Price but what.

[road doggy dogg]

Curious to see the Tigers' odds so low. Love the moves they've made this offseason. A rejuvenated JV and Zimmerman at the top of the rotation, a bullpen that can't be any worse than it was last year, and a bounce-back-ish year from VMart... I think they'll be decent. Not great, but are people really drinking the Cleveland Kool-Aid again this year? (both listed at 25/1)

[Emperor Smeat]

What am I missing with the Red Sox? Yeah David Price but what.

Not sure either. At this point just hoping for not another miserable season and dead last finish in the East.

Seems like whenever the Red Sox have been betting favorites for the AL in recent years, they decide to be extra horrible instead.

[road doggy dogg]

I mean, they'll obviously be better this year, but having the third-best odds for the World Series? Maybe people think Big Papi is gonna have some magic Cinderella sendoff season or something. Either way, I might have to hammer the under for their wins total if that reflects these odds

[ClockShot]

Just like the Giants winning it all every other year, Boston's pattern is worst/first/worst/first.

[weather vane]

Red Sox could be beasts this year if the young guns develop like they should. Also David Price. Also the bullpen is grosssssss. Also here's hoping to Laser Show to be just that. Also Papi's final year. Weird Haircut Clay can hopefully stay healthy. Porcello was pretty good at the end of the season too.

I think the Red Sox look great.

Except for Hanley and Panda. I hope they get traded and we sign Chris Davis.

[Evil Vito]

What am I missing with the Red Sox? Yeah David Price but what.

<font color=goldenrod>Wouldn't be surprised if a lot of Boston fans jumped on the Sox betting out of bias which in turn shifted the odds. It's probably not a coincidence that the 3 teams who have arguably made the biggest splashes this offseason (and who all have sizable fanbases) are the 3 favorites right now.</font>

[Emperor Smeat]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">The Dodgers will pay an MLB record of over $43 million in luxury taxes this season. <a href="https://t.co/MIYZCeYYpw">pic.twitter.com/MIYZCeYYpw</a></p>&mdash; ESPN Stats &amp; Info (@ESPNStatsInfo) <a href="https://twitter.com/ESPNStatsInfo/status/678008382335373312">December 19, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[Nicky Fives]

TONS of value in Detroit at 25/1.....If they can stay healthy, they'd be my pick to come out of the AL East if their pitching does what it's supposed to and all their sluggers can remain healthy most of the year....

[Evil Vito]

TONS of value in Detroit at 25/1.....If they can stay healthy, they'd be my pick to come out of the AL East if their pitching does what it's supposed to and all their sluggers can remain healthy most of the year....

<font color=goldenrod>I'll bet you $500 that Detroit doesn't win the AL East</font>

[DaveWadding]

the Dbacks at 20/1? Hmmmmmmmmmm

[ClockShot]

Nationals backed off of acquiring Brandon Phillips. Wanted an extension on his deal for him to waive his no-trade clause and the Nats didn't want to do that.

[Damian Rey]

What an idiot. Why would you not want to go with a winner and instead just mire in the mediocrity that will be Cincinnati Reds baseball for the next number of years.

Phillips doesn't have years left in the tank. Wonder why he wouldn't choose to spend the last of them on a winning club.

[Evil Vito]

<font color=goldenrod>In a weird sort of way I respect Phillips because he's refused to waive his no-trade clause several times in the last few years. Even though the tea mis bad he genuinely loves playing in Cincinnati and has made his home there, and to get him to leave he'd need to be compensated via extension.

On the flipside though, he's only damaging the team by not agreeing to go.</font>

[Damian Rey]

On the money.

[SlickyTrickyDamon]

Does the tax money go equally to every other team?

[SlickyTrickyDamon]

TONS of value in Detroit at 25/1.....If they can stay healthy, they'd be my pick to come out of the AL East if their pitching does what it's supposed to and all their sluggers can remain healthy most of the year....

1993 called.

[road doggy dogg]

holy shit guys he said the wrong division

y'all know what he meant

[SlickyTrickyDamon]

Nope sorry. Your team is cursed to lose in 2016 because of this. At the end of 2016 blame NickyFives as a scapegoat!

[Frank Drebin]

After being gone for a week....lol white sox. All your problems are fixed.

[Nicky Fives]

<font color=goldenrod>I'll bet you $500 that Detroit doesn't win the AL East</font>

AL Central, my bad.....Tigers have a better shot than the Jays unfortunately....

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

The Jays still have a good squad. Main loss is Price. But other than that a very similar roster.

[Evil Vito]

<font color=goldenrod>The Jays lineup is still going to score a shitload of runs. I wouldn't be at all surprised if Donaldson comes back down to earth a bit but even if he does there will be more than enough bats to go around.

Think Michael Saunders will make them even deeper next year, too. 2015 was a lost year to him due to a fluke injury so I put no stock in that 9 game stint where he hit below the Mendoza line.</font>

[Evil Vito]

<font color=goldenrod>Bartolo Colon's new contract includes a $50,000 bonus if he wins a NL Silver Slugger Award. That is amazing.</font>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/f64A5T-4Pkc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Nicky Fives]

The Jays still have a good squad. Main loss is Price. But other than that a very similar roster.

As a Jays fan, I'd still take any of Tigers starters over what they have now to win "right now"....

[road doggy dogg]

You can take Pelfry if you're that eager :p

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

As a Jays fan, I'd still take any of Tigers starters over what they have now to win "right now"....

Biggest concern is the wildcard starting rotation. Shapiro was a touch stingy but I don't really know if he had other real options.