Ratings Thread

[weather vane]

AEW GONNA BEAT RAW SOON HOLY MACANOLI BATMAN!!!!!

[#1-norm-fan]

It seems AEW’s ratings just about doubled with no competition while NXT’s stayed pretty much the same. Interesting.

[Jordan]

Oh man this thread was gone for a while why is it back?

[xrodmuc316]

Oh man this thread was gone for a while why is it back?

Right, whatever could it be???? :p

[Big Vic]

What are the ratings now?

[Volare]

The ratings are people watch wrestling. :lol:

[screech]

The ratings are people watch wrestling. :lol:

69 pages (nice) of this thread summed up in one post lol

[Volare]

Also while stoned.

[drave]

Oh look, here it is.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Cool. But that doesn’t mean ratings can’t be discussed other places as well.

[Mr. Nerfect]

According to the fast nationals, SmackDown got 2.1 million versus Rampage’s 511k. The Saturday encore edition of SmackDown got 656k. So the SmackDown replay did better than Rampage’s first run.

Last week’s SmackDown, when adding in New York and Chicago numbers, actually got around 955k.

[xrodmuc316]

According to the fast nationals, SmackDown got 2.1 million versus Rampage’s 511k. The Saturday encore edition of SmackDown got 656k. So the SmackDown replay did better than Rampage’s first run.

Last week’s SmackDown, when adding in New York and Chicago numbers, actually got around 955k.

Yeah, but what about the demos bro??? :rofl:

[xrodmuc316]

Cool. But that doesn’t mean ratings can’t be discussed other places as well.

Yeah, like in every interview, podcast, or tweet made by Tony Khan and his living toy wrestlers!!! :rofl:

Also, here is a second :rofl: just to ensure everybody recognizes that this reply is a joke, meant for chuckles, and NOT that I am angry or leaving out context. #loveyafan

[xrodmuc316]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">🚨SATURDAY FAST NATIONALS JUST DROPPED*🚨<br>*Source: The Streets of Inglewood, Calif. <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/SmackDown?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#SmackDown</a> Rerun <br>578K <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/AEWDynamite?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#AEWDynamite</a> <br>515K <br><br>Demos Are Not Available. Take from that what you will 😉<br><br>The Streets Have Spoken. <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/WWE?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#WWE</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/AEW?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#AEW</a></p>&mdash; Alfred Konuwa (@ThisIsNasty) <a href="https://twitter.com/ThisIsNasty/status/1452637050428030985?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">October 25, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Can't WAIT for how Tony and Dave are going to try and spin this one as a win :rofl::lol:

[Mr. Nerfect]

Holy shit @ a SmackDown replay beating Dynamite.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Stiff baseball competition coming up for Anything Else next week too, I hear.

[Mr. Nerfect]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">🚨SATURDAY FAST NATIONALS JUST DROPPED*🚨<br>*Source: The Streets of Inglewood, Calif. <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/SmackDown?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#SmackDown</a> Rerun <br>578K <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/AEWDynamite?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#AEWDynamite</a> <br>515K <br><br>Demos Are Not Available. Take from that what you will 😉<br><br>The Streets Have Spoken. <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/WWE?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#WWE</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/AEW?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#AEW</a></p>&mdash; Alfred Konuwa (@ThisIsNasty) <a href="https://twitter.com/ThisIsNasty/status/1452637050428030985?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">October 25, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Can't WAIT for how Tony and Dave are going to try and spin this one as a win :rofl::lol:

Dave is going to emphasise the gulf between TNT and FOX, and try to use SmackDown replays beating Dynamite as evidence SmackDown actually does horrible numbers on Friday. He will try to make TNT and Fox Sports 1 the actual measure people should use.

[Mr. Nerfect]

AEW fans: “We don’t care about ratings. Just let us enjoy the show.”

AEW Dynamite: No one enjoys the show enough to watch it.

[Bad News Gertner]

R.I.P

[Mr. Nerfect]

Lol, TNT has decided to force Dynamite live around the whole US, meaning it’s going to be on at 5pm on the West Coast instead of in an 8-10 slot. TK is on Twitter thanking TNT for being such amazing partners as they go into a slot where most of the demo it loves to crow about are stuck in traffic getting home.

RIP

[xrodmuc316]

I honestly wouldnt even care about ratings if Tony Khan and his minions didnt act so smug about them. But they do, and so I enjoy when they fall on their asses and am amused by how they spin a different story week to week to claim some kind victory.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I honestly wouldnt even care about ratings if Tony Khan and his minions didnt act so smug about them. But they do, and so I enjoy when they fall on their asses and am amused by how they spin a different story week to week to claim some kind victory.

That doesn’t help them. At all. But with me it’s a measure of growth and engagement. It’s not the only metric of that. Younger people are going to engage with content in different ways. And guess what? That’s true of WWE too. It’s why their stuff goes up on YouTube almost immediately. But when people are throwing their hands up in ecstasy claiming this shit to be so much better than whatever else is out there, and I can see so many detrimental things about the product, it makes for great evidence to actually back my opinion up.

This isn’t the recipe for wrestling getting resurrected. You can enjoy it. That’s your prerogative. But don’t tell me it’s objectively good, or objectively effective. Does it work for the converted? Sure. A lot of the time. But popularity isn’t even the point, entirely. I can like niche stuff that a lot of people won’t want to engage with. That’s cool. But there’s a link here between the content being subpar and missing a much larger audience that wants something else entirely. Something I would enjoy. Something missing. The lack of popularity doesn’t only correlate, in my opinion, but is actually causally related to AEW’s output. And I will point it out until something happens, someone gets it, and we have content that works on a more effective level.

This is evidenced by the initial Punk number. By their debut number. By their All Out buyrate. More people want to enjoy wrestling and don’t than just don’t like wrestling anymore. And anything else is a cop-out. And it’s ignoring a segment of fans — potential fans, anyway — that are very clear in what they want, believe it or not. And too many people are ready to applaud intentionality than actual performance. I’m sure AEW wants to be good wrestling. But that doesn’t make them good wrestling. I’m not going to say they are good wrestling until they are.

[xrodmuc316]

Lol, TNT has decided to force Dynamite live around the whole US, meaning it’s going to be on at 5pm on the West Coast instead of in an 8-10 slot. TK is on Twitter thanking TNT for being such amazing partners as they go into a slot where most of the demo it loves to crow about are stuck in traffic getting home.

RIP

I know turning a profit doesn't seem to be critical to AEW, but primetime ad rates are much more than middle of the day rates. Not sure why Tony is hyped about this.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I know turning a profit doesn't seem to be critical to AEW, but primetime ad rates are much more than middle of the day rates. Not sure why Tony is hyped about this.

Sucking up/spin. You roll with the hand you’re dealt. I mean, you could just keep quiet, but he’s got to push his face into everything.

Standing back and reflecting on the SmackDown replay beating Dynamite, taking out which show sucks more and all that subjective stuff — I think it does spell out an interesting story re: network television and the potential for wrestling promotions to do way more than they have elsewhere on it.

Come TV renegotiations, I think it will be interesting to see where Raw and SmackDown end up, but also whether AEW makes a play for network, and whether cable breaks bank to secure these shows that have potentially much larger audiences.

Taking Raw being awful out of the equation, that it does so well on cable is actually pretty incredible, when you really think about it. If it went to FOX or NBC, it would probably see a pretty sizeable increase in audience. Now, they do have an incumbent one, but I can see other wrestling promotions making real plays to point out that gulf between what Dynamite does on a Saturday against a SmackDown replay, and trying to use that argue their own deals without the capital that Tony Khan had to sign stars and the like.

I don’t know if networks will go for it, or if it’s even true, but there is a dollars and sense story here.

Ultimately, the future is in streaming. That changes the whole game. Then it becomes who can generate content to keep subscriptions viable and possibly expand OTT services into new countries or make them more viable for a sale. But cable and network wanting to remain competitive and look for content means that companies can make a killing off playing the ratings game for a little while longer. Networks might see the value in live entertainment being something they can milk and gain larger audiences than cable can allow, and cable networks might pay a hefty premium to keep or obtain something that could be way more popular on network.

Ultimately, I think this could lead to other wrestling promotions really looking to secure network deals, as unlikely as they may seem, because that could cast a much wider net almost instantly, which can boost all other business metrics — attendance, merchandising, PPV, etc.

For example: ROH could use a network broadcasting deal to really bolster their popularity and their syndication purpose. MLW didn’t exactly pop on Vice, but if they could get a deal with CBS, they could become #2 in sheer popularity almost overnight. In theory.

Impact are breaking off their deal with AEW. Mark Cuban has a lot of money. Whether he starts another thing or tries to get Impact onto network so that AXS can benefit with popularity is an outside possibility.

The true story here, in my opinion, is just how unremarkable cable ratings are compared to network, and how a SmackDown replay can get 550k people over two hours with no original content.

I dunno, I may just be being an optimist here. But more than even just recently I am seeing the huge gap between network television and cable. I see more good news in that than WWE simply being so much more popular than AEW.

[Mr. Nerfect]

The obvious obstacle is first-run wrestling being competitive in those slots with other content. Wrestling has a real problem with that. It’d be ambitious and ballsy, don’t get me wrong. But I hope people have had the idea.

[XL]

What sort of ratings decrease did Raw see back in the day when they were shunted for the Dog Show? I know it’s not a 1:1 just mildly interested in how transferable the old audience was.

[Mr. Nerfect]

What sort of ratings decrease did Raw see back in the day when they were shunted for the Dog Show? I know it’s not a 1:1 just mildly interested in how transferable the old audience was.

I think they would take a hit, but I’m just going off memory. Not catastrophically huge, I don’t think. But I don’t remember them gaining massively not being against Nitro or anything.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I’m more confident in saying that I seem to recall the unopposed wrestling shows doing better on Monday nights. It would help Raw when Nitro got pre-empted and vice versa.

[slik]

1.66 million for the 'season premiere' of RAW

[xrodmuc316]

I think the real interesting issue will be Fox vs NBC in terms of WWE's future. If NBC is going to make an actual play to own WWE's content (which most analysts see as the only reason NBC paid a $billion for WWE Network to be on Peacock) than they will have to overpay for whatever Smackdown's value is.

NBC is not going to pay $5billion for WWE just to have one of their shows on Fox. Vince certainly would want to be compensated in any NBC deal for the money he could have kept making with Fox.

Another big issue is that WWE Network deal goes for another 2+ years after the Fox Smackdown contract ends. I could see Vince signing a deal with NBC to air Smackdown for those 2 years, so those 2 contracts end around the same time, at which point NBC would make the purchase play. That is still about 4 and a half years away.

The big question then is would Fox want AEW as a replacement? AEW's show as it is today certainly couldnt air on Network TV. Would their hardcore fanbase even watch a more family friendly AEW? I really doubt Fox would want the perception that they lost Smackdown to NBC and replaced it with a bootleg version (which is what people outside of wrestling fans see it as)? Would AEW want to move Dynamite to Friday nights? They certainly aren't getting on any other day, no Wrestling Show is getting on Network TV on any day but Friday or maybe Saturday. Or would Fox rather just not have wrestling on their Network anymore?

Vince is likely to cash out, Shad has to at some point decide AEW needs to start turning a profit, and Tony has to be more professional than getting into Twitter spats with random people if he ever wants the perception of AEW to match WWE's in the business world. For as bad as WWE is, that is a brand that is at least respected in Corporate America.

[slik]

My guess is NBCUniversal eventually buys WWE and AEW stays put on Time Warner

[Damian Rey 2.0]

If NBC did buy out Vince and revamped the creative team I’d be v interested to see what direction they’d take the company in.

[screech]

If NBC did buy out Vince and revamped the creative team I’d be v interested to see what direction they’d take the company in.

Turn the whole thing into a sitcom with special episodes (PPVs) for stories to wrap up via characters finally beating the shit out of each other.

[Bad News Gertner]

Vegas residency

[Damian Rey 2.0]

Turn the whole thing into a sitcom with special episodes (PPVs) for stories to wrap up via characters finally beating the shit out of each other.

It would be a sitcom or dramady with some wrestling worked in. Basically soap opera with wrestling.

[drave]

That is 100% the WWE of tomorrow.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Halloween Havoc did 746k.

Now, a reasonable person would wait to see what AEW did this week, but since AEW fanboys established you can compare shows backwards in time, this means NXT kicked Dynamite’s ass.

[Bad News Gertner]

941,000 for Dynamite.

Yikes.

R.I.P TNA Xplos....er AEW Dynamite.

[xrodmuc316]

941,000 for Dynamite.

Yikes.

R.I.P TNA Xplos....er AEW Dynamite.

That number sounds like Tony is gonna have to call Shad for another advance on his allowance :rofl:

[screech]

Damn I forgot about Xplosion lol

[Big Vic]

How come AEW is declining?

[slik]

Same as RAW, real sports dominating ratings

[Bad News Gertner]

Poor product

[XL]

So, either way, same as Raw.

[Bad News Gertner]

Raw comes in at around a 8.5/10 while AEW comes in at around 4/10. Last time I checked the numbers.

[XL]

Yeah but everyone knows that x/10 is an out-dated and out-moded measure that doesn’t really capture how people truly feel about things nowadays.

[Bad News Gertner]

Excuse me sir! My system is a HIGHLY complicated calculation of numbers with pinpoint accuracy.

[xrodmuc316]

How come AEW is declining?

Tony Khan acting like a spoiled child everytime he talks certainly doesnt help. He is the adult version of "My Daddy could beat up your Daddy".

[Mr. Nerfect]

Hahaha, 941k.

[Mr. Nerfect]

878k for Dynamite this week. Ouch.

For those who care about the demo, it was down 20%. When you take that away from them, what do they have to lean on? Women and older viewers aren’t suddenly going to come along and give them something to brag about.

Not a surprise that less people are engaged after that STUPID angle in the main event last week. Also, this week they had to randomly throw a guy into a tournament instead of giving a guy a bye to the finals because the booking is so shit.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Raw did 1.69 million across the three hours. They’re almost doubling them, and I believe they saw an increase from last week. Who’s out of touch in this whole situation?

[Mr. Nerfect]

Across the two competitive hours, Raw got 1.71 million viewers, which is more than double. Imagine if Dynamite had a third hour dragging its numbers down every week. :eek:

[Vastardikai]

878k for Dynamite this week. Ouch.

For those who care about the demo, it was down 20%. When you take that away from them, what do they have to lean on? Women and older viewers aren’t suddenly going to come along and give them something to brag about.

Not a surprise that less people are engaged after that STUPID angle in the main event last week. Also, this week they had to randomly throw a guy into a tournament instead of giving a guy a bye to the finals because the booking is so shit.

The fact that they had a guy to throw into the tournament instead of having him in the tournament to begin with is a bigger blemish on the booking.

[Mr. Nerfect]

The fact that they had a guy to throw into the tournament instead of having him in the tournament to begin with is a bigger blemish on the booking.

I mentioned this someone else, but that you can’t just give the heel a bye into the finals and have them brag about it and maybe do an angle with them and the guy that had to earn that last win is indeed an indicator of how silly this company can be. You can’t have Orange Cassidy in that PPV match against Danielson — so don’t book him to look good in the tournament!

Why they are even doing a tournament to crown a #1 contender right now when they just did a Ladder Match to give a guy his shot that he hasn’t even gotten yet is absolutely bonkers. They may as well do a Battle Royal to open up the PPV to give someone a title shot too.

The PPV should just be Omega vs. Danielson. You’ve also got Cole and Christian Cage. Jurassic Express vs. The Young Bucks. If you NEED Adam Page back, you could have him announced as the enforcer for the main event. He can win a prelim match. Whatever. Danielson wins when Page foils heel interference. Omega whines on Dynamite and Page comes out in his hometown to start a program with Omega as Danielson moves into something with someone like MJF, heel Cody, Malakai Black, maybe Miro. Maybe CM Punk or Adam Cole. This isn’t rocket science.

[slik]

Bad numbers for both, damn


<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Fast nationals for Friday night <br><br>SmackDown P2+: 1.978M<br>18-49: 663K <br><br>Rampage P2+ 556K<br>18-49: 267k<a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/wwe?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#wwe</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/smackdown?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#smackdown</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/aew?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#aew</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/AEWRampage?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#AEWRampage</a></p>&mdash; Andrew Zarian (@AndrewZarian) <a href="https://twitter.com/AndrewZarian/status/1457056712100356100?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">November 6, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[Mr. Nerfect]

But why would WWE leak that? Oh wait, that’s a load of shit.

[xrodmuc316]

But why would WWE leak that? Oh wait, that’s a load of shit.

Thats a good conspiracy theory, that nobody in the world has access to fast Nationals but WWE, and WWE only releases them to make AEW look bad :rofl:

[Mr. Nerfect]

Thats a good conspiracy theory, that nobody in the world has access to fast Nationals but WWE, and WWE only releases them to make AEW look bad :rofl:

I don’t think it can count as “leaking” if the information is available on request.

[Mr. Nerfect]

599k for Rampage. 2.093 million for SmackDown.

[xrodmuc316]

I don’t think it can count as “leaking” if the information is available on request.

Exactly, but the dirt sheet writers have somehow ignored Rampage losing half its audience in 2 months as only because WWE leaks the fast ratings to make AEW look bad.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Exactly, but the dirt sheet writers have somehow ignored Rampage losing half its audience in 2 months as only because WWE leaks the fast ratings to make AEW look bad.

Oh yeah, it’s a load of shit. Dirt sheet writers are going to keep the lid on any truth that blows the “AEW is killing it and WWE better learn from all their mistakes” narrative. SmackDown seems to be the show that is holding up better than any of them. But when Rampage or Dynamite slips it’s...the news, football, basketball, baseball, Covid, a lack of Covid — whatever flies that week.

It can’t be that the show isn’t that compelling to people, can it?

[slik]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">WWE Raw got their lowest third hour audience ever -- 1.373 million viewers. 1.549 overall</p>&mdash; Sean Ross Sapp of Fightful.com (@SeanRossSapp) <a href="https://twitter.com/SeanRossSapp/status/1458183939403702281?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">November 9, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[Mr. Nerfect]

That’s only like 3 Rampages. :eek:

[Mr. Nerfect]

Fast nationals have SmackDown at 1.99 million and Rampage at 480k.

RIP, Rampage.

When that show gets canned, I wonder how that will affect Dynamite, since WarnerMedia paid for two shows when they extended the deal that Meltzer called “winning.”

[Mr. Nerfect]

That third hour of Raw people say is death? 1.37 million. Rampage? 480k. That’ll probably be bumped up to above 500k when the numbers come in, but I think it is safe to say this experiment has been a complete and utter failure.

[Mr. Nerfect]

The TBS move is probably going to hurt them further. Interesting times ahead.

[Bad News Gertner]

That’s only like 3 Rampages. :eek:

Lol more like 4 Rampages now

[Mr. Nerfect]

WWE gets mocked when they do 1.6 million. If they lost half their audience over a span of a couple of months, they would be dragged over coal by critics.

Rampage debuted with like 750k viewers. Punk spiked them to 1 million. But the show is boring, patterned and bad and now they’re at 500k. Can people finally admit that AEW sucks?

[Mr. Nerfect]

515k for Rampage. :lol:

[Mr. Nerfect]

984k for Dynamite. That’s even with the post-show bump and title change. Given their story going forward is “bully Bryan Danielson” beating up losers, you can probably be rest assured that rating will sink lower and lower over the next few weeks.

[Mr. Nerfect]

556k for Rampage! A climb!

[Mr. Nerfect]

I apologize for ever doubting the drawing power of Billy Gunn. He truly is the future of this industry. And I apologize for ever thinking this show was going to end up cancelled and potentially casting shade onto the whole WarnerMedia/AEW deal. Rampage is the game-changer.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Bryan Danielson heel turn and feud with babyface jobber faction didn’t help ratings, apparently. 898k.

[xrodmuc316]

Bryan Danielson heel turn and feud with babyface jobber faction didn’t help ratings, apparently. 898k.

They better sign some more free agents or run a special theme Dynamite ASAP if they want to get a million one more time on TNT before being shipped off to TBS.

[Mr. Nerfect]

They buy an audience, then they whittle it down. I don’t think the move to TBS is going to be good for them. Just because it is in more homes doesn’t mean that more people watch it. I can see a lot of people tuning out when they do the switch.

[Mr. Nerfect]

TK out there bragging about this number by comparing it to previous years. Never mind that Dynamite was still against NXT last year and the year before there was a major blackout. :lol:

1.4 million people were watching wrestling last year. 37% of those people didn’t tune in this Wednesday. It’s not a win, Tony.

[xrodmuc316]

TK out there bragging about this number by comparing it to previous years. Never mind that Dynamite was still against NXT last year and the year before there was a major blackout. :lol:

1.4 million people were watching wrestling last year. 37% of those people didn’t tune in this Wednesday. It’s not a win, Tony.

He is a turd. He has become the most unlikable thing about AEW by far.

[Mr. Nerfect]

They have this smug, sore winner thing about them. And they don’t even win anything, lol.

[xrodmuc316]

They have this smug, sore winner thing about them. And they don’t even win anything, lol.

Rampage rocking a 431k rating, somehow Tony thinks he beat Smackdown and that TNT loves him. :rofl::rofl::rofl:

[Mr. Nerfect]

Ouch. People will point to Black Friday, but you also have a lot of people stuffed and at home looking for something to watch on TV. Is it a big party night? And let’s see if they ever recover from these disruptions that people peg excuses on.

The last thing you want is to disrupt viewing habits, and AEW just finds itself in position after position where viewing habits are being challenged. And that TBS move is going to do that too. And the big iceberg that I don’t think many apologists have seen coming is that people who watch TBS now are going to have their viewing habits challenged too. I’m no fan of The Big Bang Theory myself, but I know it is very popular, and I’m sure there are quite a few people who watch it now that don’t want to be sitting down enjoying their Wednesday evening with a BBT marathon, just to discover that trashy wrestling is on their screen. And if TBS works out they are taking a hit in advertising revenue by shoving this wrestling into the place this even cheaper sitcom marathon was? Yikes.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I did a quick scour of some places, and it seems that even AEW loyalists are taking pause at that Rampage number. It’s not good.

The thing is, that graveyard slot is what was assigned to them. TK acts like he “chose it,” but that’s where WarnerMedia sees AEW and how it sees AEW fans. They may have counted on more loyalty, but it’s not peak positioning like they want it to be the best dog in show.

Even though I’m no fan of this company or its ethos, I would probably at least try to out Rampage on at 7pm on Friday. You can move the movie back a bit to a later time (which might actually be more convenient for the film). I dunno, it depends how valuable AEW actually is for advertising and whether or not giving Rampage a better slot is “worth it.”

But this show is a detriment to everything. From AEW’s end, they should probably scrap Dark and Rampage. Focus on Dynamite and maybe Elevation if you are getting ridiculous money from a YouTube partnership. Maybe look into syndication if you can buy ROH and that slot, and maybe running house shows every now and then to keep fervor for ticket sales going, if projections predict that, where you can let guys go for longer and create fun shows for people to go to that isn’t risking overexposure. You can tape them for some sort of future tape library/streaming service.

[slik]

1.68 million for RAW promoting Edge's return and Vince on tv.

[Mr. Nerfect]

1.68 million for RAW promoting Edge's return and Vince on tv.

So almost double what AEW got. How did the first two hours go? It’d be interesting to compare the prime time hours.

[Mr. Nerfect]

1.721 million for Raw’s first 2 hours.

If you do an AEW-like squint, where you just compare what you want, Dynamite + Rampage averaged 665k viewers. Raw doing 1.68 million doesn’t look so bad next to that, right?

[xrodmuc316]

1.721 million for Raw’s first 2 hours.

If you do an AEW-like squint, where you just compare what you want, Dynamite + Rampage averaged 665k viewers. Raw doing 1.68 million doesn’t look so bad next to that, right?

"That number doesnt even count, it was Cyber Monday, so OF COURSE Raw's ratings were down!!!!" ~ Alternate Universe Dave Meltzer where he shills for WWE instead :kiss:

[slik]

Noid this is why people think you are uhinged sir

I posted about RAW and you responded not once but twice, and both responses bring up AEW. You gotta get fresh air dude.

[Bad News Gertner]

Noid and Xrodmuc are the tag team champions of the world.

The Truth Speakers

[ron the dial]

that sweet lil kiss in xrod's post was for noid

[xrodmuc316]

that sweet lil kiss in xrod's post was for noid

Naw, that was for alternate reality Dave Meltzer, still a douche but a WWE douche, so he is a tiny bit better :rofl:

[Mr. Nerfect]

Noid this is why people think you are uhinged sir

I posted about RAW and you responded not once but twice, and both responses bring up AEW. You gotta get fresh air dude.

“Don’t bring the truth into this, Noid.”

[GD]

Wow! This page is just a hot pile of garbage. Grown ass men getting their jollies via being mean spirited douchebags because they weren't loved enough as children. I have no doubt in my mind that creepy Noid still lives in his mother's basement because no other woman would dare associate with him. He probably also has streamers on his bike so he could impress the kids in his neighborhood.

[ron the dial]

perfect timing

[GD]

lmao

[Bad News Gertner]

You catty bitch

[xrodmuc316]

Umm, who wouldnt want streamers on their bike???

[GD]

Umm, who wouldnt want streamers on their bike???

I want to say it is indicative of a problematic childhood since he's in his fifties but that's not fair. He's other issues that deserve more attention. Professional help to be blunt. At the very least, he gets his ass eaten on Fridays. So it's not all that bad.

[Bad News Gertner]

861,000 viewers for Dynamite lol


WWF LiveWire called. They'd like their ratings back


R.I.P

[#1-norm-fan]

My arguments that Daniel Bryan isn’t a draw from 7 years ago are being vindicated.

[Triple A]

Dynamite ratings have been slipping since they started doing more "serious" wrestling and Jim Cornette has started liking the show!!! SHould go back to more comedy wrestling imho... AEW was better back then!

[xrodmuc316]

That number is a direct result of Tony Khan's random booking of nobody's versus top guys in WAY too competitive matches. MJF was right mocking it taking Punk SOOOO long to beat a guy with 2 wins in AEW.

They have squandered the major gift that fell into their laps getting Punk, Cole, and Bryan. They have lost almost a third of their Audience since the episode of Dynamite after All Out, which was only 3 months ago.

Can you imagine the backlash WWE would be getting if 3 months from now Smackdown was getting a 1.4 rating? Losing that many viewers in 3 months time is bonkers.

[#1-norm-fan]

First thing’s first. Let’s not pretend Adam Cole is, or ever was, on the same level as Punk and Bryan.

[#1-norm-fan]

Also...

Can you imagine the backlash WWE would be getting if 3 months from now Smackdown was getting a 1.4 rating? Losing that many viewers in 3 months time is bonkers.

This could happen. WWE loses viewers at a pretty alarming rate.

[slik]

I blame the Matt Hardy vs OC feud for killing off ratings

[Triple A]

Show has been too focused on CM Punk for the past 3 months... Don't need to see him wrestling every person on the roster each week in 15 min matches that only get interesting in the last 2 mins

MJF feud is the first time he has been interesting to me besides his debut

[slik]

Not enough Sammy Guevara, Ricky Starks on tv IMO

[slik]

or Wardlow
or Dante Martin
or Rey Fenix
or Powerhouse Hobbes

[slik]

Britt, Thunder Rosa, Jade all interesting but Jade never on tv it seems

[slik]

Tony Khan prob will fix things by booking a 20 minutes Luther vs CM Punk match

[xrodmuc316]

Also...



This could happen. WWE loses viewers at a pretty alarming rate.

Not saying it couldnt, just that if Smackdown lost a 3rd of their viewers in 3 months it would get a lot more backlash.

[Jordan]

I'm definitely over seeing Punk and Bryan work with the green AEW talent. Would much rather see them face off against the mid card guys that have a name.

I do feel they have cheapened the biggest tickets (Punk and Bryan) a bit by having so many exhibition style matches.

[Damian Rey 2.0]

I like that Danielson is just kicking the shit outta guys I’m mostly non competitive matches. Especially because they’re using it right now to get him over as a heel and tell a story.

I don’t know what is up with the ratings. I don’t care, to be honest. But it’s interesting they’re going through a lull considering they’ve been putting on pretty consistently strong shows in that time frame.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Here are some contributing factors to AEW’s slipping ratings:

* Taking one of the most beloved stars in wrestling and turning him heel for no good reason. People who follow him over because they like him get to see him act like a dick and be a bully. Validates any kayfabe talk he couldn’t cut it in WWE anymore. Bad booking.

* Having your top stars wrestle complete absolute losers competitively, and advertise this as a story. Last week MJF even pointed out Punk struggles with the easiest meals. These are not effective squashes. These are predictable and overexposing matches. You’re basically advertising the lettuce on the burger with this stuff. It’s also helped kill Rampage off. Bad booking.

* Having good stuff on your show can often highlight how utterly crap everything else is. People don’t want to wade through crap. They followed up CM Punk’s debut with Matt Hardy vs. Orange Cassidy. Bad booking.

* The new car smell continues to wear off. AEW made big promises and has barely made a splash. You can only ride being new and not being the dominant product for so long.

They don’t get it. They have never gotten it. They likely never will. This product is not for wrestling fans. Not really. It’s for a certain type of nerd who has such a sadomasochistic relationship with wrestling that they consider someone spitting in a cup providing them a drink. This shit does not functionally work for most people who have either tuned out wrestling for being terrible in the past or just want sincere pro-wrestling.

As I predicted, they got a little bit of a bump from their PPV, but have been riding interest down, down, down week after week by advertising shit people aren’t interested in.

[Mr. Nerfect]

The excuse last week was Thanksgiving. What’s the excuse this week?

[GD]

The excuse last week was Thanksgiving. What’s the excuse this week?

Bryan Danielson is still a heel this week.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Last year, 1.571 million people were watching wrestling on a Wednesday. 45% of viewers have been run off that night. Last year was Winter is Coming, but this show had Danielson, Punk and a Street Fight advertised.

Interest is not being grown.

[xrodmuc316]

There was no reason to turn Bryan heel THAT quickly, with zero build other than a heel was no longer the world champion. Just because Hangman is the champ instead of Kenny, Bryan suddenly goes out and insults the fans? That is not logical.

[Mr. Nerfect]

But don’t worry, moving to a new network is definitely going to help them come January. :y:

[GD]

There was no reason to turn Bryan heel THAT quickly, with zero build other than a heel was no longer the world champion. Just because Hangman is the champ instead of Kenny, Bryan suddenly goes out and insults the fans? That is not logical.

Do you really believe that has an impact on the ratings?

[Mr. Nerfect]

There was no reason to turn Bryan heel THAT quickly, with zero build other than a heel was no longer the world champion. Just because Hangman is the champ instead of Kenny, Bryan suddenly goes out and insults the fans? That is not logical.

And a lot of fans of Daniel Bryan that were into him because of his persona or his underdog wrestling style — and he had a deeper connection than most — are going to be challenged by this cursing bully on the other show. You’re just pissing in the wind.

I guarantee you, there are people who loved Daniel Bryan in the WWE who have sampled AEW and said “Eh, he’s not for me anymore” or some sort of variant. They make their product needlessly arcane.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Imagine being some kid in the Midwest, and Daniel Bryan was your favorite wrestler. You tune into this new promotion that he’s chosen to work for. Now you’ve got to put up with him saying “shit” every two words (Mom doesn’t like hearing that on the TV), him acting disingenuous (you loved his sincerity) and he’s beating up the nerds like you instead of wrestling the actual bullies.

“Meh, maybe I’ve grown out of wrestling.”

They’re tone fucking deaf.

[xrodmuc316]

Do you really believe that has an impact on the ratings?

Not specifically no, but it was still an illogical move and that is too common place in wrestling.

[GD]

Not specifically no, but it was still an illogical move.

I'm not arguing about the logic. It's daft to suggest that Danielson's heel turn has anything to do with the fall in ratings.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Not specifically no, but it was still an illogical move and that is too common place in wrestling.

It’s another drop in the bucket. And believe it or not, there are still people who sincerely want to enjoy wrestling, and don’t like it dripping in nonsense.

Punk and Danielson got eyeballs. They’ve lost eyeballs since. That either has something to do with the performer or their presentation.

[GD]

Noid, you creepy old fuck. Nobody cares about your opinion, not even those in your retirement home. You're not the target demo in life anymore. Get over yourself.

[BigCrippyZ]

Imagine being some kid in the Midwest, and Daniel Bryan was your favorite wrestler. You tune into this new promotion that he’s chosen to work for. Now you’ve got to put up with him saying “shit” every two words (Mom doesn’t like hearing that on the TV), him acting disingenuous (you loved his sincerity) and he’s beating up the nerds like you instead of wrestling the actual bullies.

“Meh, maybe I’ve grown out of wrestling.”

They’re tone fucking deaf.

Imagine being some fucking complete moron who believes that this is how a kid (or their mom) in the Midwest or anywhere else in the U.S. thinks. You're so fucking stupid and pathetic. If your opinion on what should be on U.S. television or even pro wrestling remotely mattered, you'd actually be working in the industry.

[Vastardikai]

How many times can you see Steamboat vs. Savage in a night until it gets boring? In a week? In a month?

[Destor]

How many times can you see Steamboat vs. Savage in a night until it gets boring? In a week? In a month?outstanding observation. wrestling has always needed to be a variety show to some extent.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Imagine being some fucking complete moron who believes that this is how a kid (or their mom) in the Midwest or anywhere else in the U.S. thinks. You're so fucking stupid and pathetic. If your opinion on what should be on U.S. television or even pro wrestling remotely mattered, you'd actually be working in the industry.

Lol, they’re not thinking like AEW does. Cry harder about it. :lol:

[#1-norm-fan]

Stupid AEW not booking Daniel Bryan to be like he was in WWE in order to retain the good Christian boys who loved him there.

But also AEW is just another WWE-lite promotion.

[GD]

Stupid AEW not booking Daniel Bryan to be like he was in WWE in order to retain the good Christian boys who loved him there.

But also AEW is just another WWE-lite promotion.

The mental gymnastics :nono:

[xrodmuc316]

Stupid AEW not booking Daniel Bryan to be like he was in WWE in order to retain the good Christian boys who loved him there.

But also AEW is just another WWE-lite promotion.

What does religion have to do with it?? :rofl:

[GD]

:rofl:

[weather vane]

Why is everybody so pissed off?

[#1-norm-fan]

What does religion have to do with it?? :rofl:

That was my own assumption about this hypothetical nerdy midwestern kid with parents who don’t tolerate naughty language AEW should be targeting. Maybe a Christian upbringing isn’t at play here. Maybe he’s not even from the Midwest! We won’t know until we find him.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Stupid AEW not booking Daniel Bryan to be like he was in WWE in order to retain the good Christian boys who loved him there.

But also AEW is just another WWE-lite promotion.

False dichotomy. Getting someone who has value because they are one of the biggest success stories in the WWE and using them to their strengths is not a bad idea. Wasn’t it you that said they should just sign good talent regardless of where they come from? Shouldn’t they just use good ideas no matter where they have also been used? ;)

Being different for the sake of being different, or bad because someone else chose good, isn’t productive. You know this. You’re just being difficult for the sake of it because I’m under your skin.

Believe it or not, the country you live in has loads of conservative people, loads of religious people, and loads of people who live in households that aren’t going to be receptive to the sort of programming AEW puts out. Evidence: THE FUCKING RATINGS!!!

When something doesn’t work, it doesn’t work. I know that’s a really hard concept to wrap your mind around. But the people saying “Hey, maybe this was a bad idea, or maybe that was a bad idea,” aren’t the fucking crazies.

[Mr. Nerfect]

What does religion have to do with it?? :rofl:

It’s much easier to just misrepresent what someone is saying instead of actually responding to their points.

Like it or not, explicit content limits your reach.

[#1-norm-fan]

What does religion have to do with it?? :rofl:

It’s much easier to just misrepresent what someone is saying instead of actually responding to their points.

Damn. Sorry for misrepresenting your point by implying that religion might play a factor in this hypothetical situation you brought up.


Believe it or not, the country you live in has loads of conservative people, loads of religious people, and loads of people who live in households that aren’t going to be receptive to the sort of programming AEW puts out.

Wait...

[Mr. Nerfect]

Damn. Sorry for misrepresenting your point by implying that religion might play a factor in this hypothetical situation you brought up.



Wait...

That was in response to you. I didn’t bring up religious people, you did. And yeah, they exist. That’s not the only reason you would limit your explicit content when trying to attract a general audience though.

[#1-norm-fan]

I hope the upcoming attempt to save face includes another Spider-Man analogy that exposes your disconnect from reality in one amazing post.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Tony Khan is out there bragging about DVR numbers now. :lol:

Can’t wait for Meltzer to talk about how that is a real measure of a company’s success. Then never bring up Raw or SmackDown’s.

[#1-norm-fan]

That was in response to you. I didn’t bring up religious people, you did. And yeah, they exist. That’s not the only reason you would limit your explicit content when trying to attract a general audience though.

So you agree that it’s a reason, double down on it as a reason but when I brought it up as a reason I was misrepresenting your point. It sounds like you were looking for a “gotcha” and go caught. Admit it.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I hope the upcoming attempt to save face includes another Spider-Man analogy that exposes your disconnect from reality in one amazing post.

Lol, disconnect from reality? I’m not the one in denial that AEW is losing viewers. And that is in large part because of the product they are putting out.

[Mr. Nerfect]

So you agree that it’s a reason, double down on it as a reason but when I brought it up as a reason I was misrepresenting your point. It sounds like you were looking for a “gotcha” and go caught. Admit it.

Ugh, back to this sealioning. It’s one reason. Of many. Anyone who has worked in any kind of media knows how explicit content limits your reach. This is not a strange concept. And yes, when you bring up something that someone didn’t say, it is misrepresenting their point.

When someone tells a child they shouldn’t stand on furniture, it can be for the child’s safety. It could also be to protect the furniture. It isn’t necessarily one or the other.

[#1-norm-fan]

Lol, disconnect from reality? I’m not the one in denial that AEW is losing viewers. And that is in large part because of the product they are putting out.

Listen man, people can think AEW is skyrocketing and on the brink of putting WWE out of business and that wouldn’t change the fact that the view you express about yourself and your role in certain arguments are not views that a sane person should hold.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Listen man, people can think AEW is skyrocketing and on the brink of putting WWE out of business and that wouldn’t change the fact that the view you expressed about yourself and your role in certain arguments are not views that a sane person should hold.

And there’s the tap.

Turning wrestlers that a large fan-base wants to cheer can be detrimental. Overexposing your product is detrimental. Presenting predictable filler can be detrimental. Evidence: The declining ratings. They are down from Thanksgiving Eve. Throw ad hominem at me all you want. You aren’t sticking to the points because you know you’ve got nothing.

[#1-norm-fan]

Actually what I’m doing is harping on that Spider-Man analogy because it was the greatest peak into how you perceive yourself and every argument presented to you yet. And it was batshit crazy. And all the lame “There’s the tap!” “Swing and a miss!”, “Try harder!” phrases you’ve picked up on as cool things to say in online debates don’t carry the weight you want them to.

Part of you probably knows you exposed a bit too much with that analogy. That’s why you get uncomfortable with it being brought up. You go ahead and look up more cool-sounding phrases intended to make yourself feel right though. It seems to be a “checkmate” in your reality.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Lol, I don’t even remember what analogy you are referring to. Please remind me. But I’m the one actually staying on-point here. We’re talking about AEW’s declining ratings and the possible reasons for them. You keep trying to veer away from that to try and go after my personality (or at least your perception of it, which you get monstrously wrong). And you’ve been that way since I called you out that one time, because I think you think you’ve got to be the smartest guy in the room. Since then it’s just been irrelevant trash from you.

Let me try and correct your course a bit:

Do you deny that AEW’s ratings are declining?

That question is specific and on the subject matter. Instead of going off into these insecure places where you keep trying to grab a gotcha or insult me instead of my actual arguments, can you kindly stay on topic, Mr. Internet Debate, and respond to that simple, relevant question?

[#1-norm-fan]

I COULD go ahead and “continue” a discourse about the direction of AEW’s ratings that I was never actually having in the first place so that your warped view of reality can more easily stay on track.

I COULD explain in a new, less sarcastic/smartass manner why your Daniel Bryan gripe is another in a long line of weird, desperate reaches.

I COULD explain the horrible flaw in your attempted “gotcha” when you accused me of misrepresenting your point and how your explanation just made it worse.

All of that would lead absolutely nowhere because of the bigger issue which is that you argue based on a reality and a view of yourself that is fucking crazy. You’re free to head back to the Survivor Series thread and try to explain how you’re a rational person but barring that happening, I don’t trust your ability to assess any argument being made to you.

[GD]

I hope the upcoming attempt to save face includes another Spider-Man analogy that exposes your disconnect from reality in one amazing post.

The gift that keeps on giving. I'm still chuckling over the fact that Noid doesn't have me on ignore and thought The Rock actually made an appearance at Survivor Series.

:rofl:

[GD]

Listen man, people can think AEW is skyrocketing and on the brink of putting WWE out of business and that wouldn’t change the fact that the view you express about yourself and your role in certain arguments are not views that a sane person should hold.

https://c.tenor.com/NjDiRcr_uNwAAAAC/oh-my-impressed.gif

[GD]

Actually what I’m doing is harping on that Spider-Man analogy because it was the greatest peak into how you perceive yourself and every argument presented to you yet. And it was batshit crazy. And all the lame “There’s the tap!” “Swing and a miss!”, “Try harder!” phrases you’ve picked up on as cool things to say in online debates don’t carry the weight you want them to.

Part of you probably knows you exposed a bit too much with that analogy. That’s why you get uncomfortable with it being brought up. You go ahead and look up more cool-sounding phrases intended to make yourself feel right though. It seems to be a “checkmate” in your reality.

Don't forget that everyone is simply obsessed with him.

[GD]

I COULD go ahead and “continue” a discourse about the direction of AEW’s ratings that I was never actually having in the first place so that your warped view of reality can more easily stay on track.

I COULD explain in a new, less sarcastic/smartass manner why your Daniel Bryan gripe is another in a long line of weird, desperate reaches.

I COULD explain the horrible flaw in your attempted “gotcha” when you accused me of misrepresenting your point and how your explanation just made it worse.

All of that would lead absolutely nowhere because of the bigger issue which is that you argue based on a reality and a view of yourself that is fucking crazy. You’re free to head back to the Survivor Series thread and try to explain how you’re a rational person but barring that happening, I don’t trust your ability to assess any argument being made to you.

Said like a true mark, King.

[Bad News Gertner]

Ratings and demos mean nothing for wrestling

The NHL does lower ratings and demos than Dynamite on the same Network but has $100 million dollar in advertising. It's a "legacy" brand. The WWE is inching towards being that. Stephanie McMahon does not get NEARLY enough credit for all her work changing the perception of the company in the business world.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I COULD go ahead and “continue” a discourse about the direction of AEW’s ratings that I was never actually having in the first place so that your warped view of reality can more easily stay on track.

I COULD explain in a new, less sarcastic/smartass manner why your Daniel Bryan gripe is another in a long line of weird, desperate reaches.

I COULD explain the horrible flaw in your attempted “gotcha” when you accused me of misrepresenting your point and how your explanation just made it worse.

All of that would lead absolutely nowhere because of the bigger issue which is that you argue based on a reality and a view of yourself that is fucking crazy. You’re free to head back to the Survivor Series thread and try to explain how you’re a rational person but barring that happening, I don’t trust your ability to assess any argument being made to you.

That’s a really long-winded way of saying you can’t do those things. We’re in the ratings thread, we’re discussing ratings. I have asked you a direct question and you’re avoiding it.

I will continue to actually stay on topic and explain my rationale even further. When you have a beloved babyface that people actually want to see, it can be detrimental to that audience to transform them into an intended antagonist.

Bryan Danielson in AEW is on a much smaller scale, but it was stupid to turn Austin heel at Mania 17. It was stupid to turn Goldberg heel. It was stupid to turn Ric Flair heel in 1999. Sometimes the wrestler in question is a tremendous performer in that heel role, but people don’t necessarily want to see it at that point in time in that particular context. If you are a fan of Bryan Danielson, seeing his presentation in AEW, no matter how good he is at portraying smugness or controlling a match, can be really fucking jarring.

That’s not the only factor. It’s one of many. The silly wrestlers that undermine the sincerity of your product are another — especially when they contrast to things you want to be taken sincerely. The overexposure of stars by having them wrestle so long almost every week is another. The choice of their opponents are another, because the outcomes are foregone conclusions, they challenge the credibility of the stars you’re putting them against, and they are drawn out attempts to milk drama from a place you cannot milk it from effectively. There’s also just so much wrestling that people are going to prioritize and/or fall behind then realize they don’t care.

And the explicit content is another. Some people may not like swearing because they’re religious. I didn’t say that was the only reason, so I’m not sure why you’re holding onto this like a “gotcha.” It could also be that they just don’t like swearing around their kids. Or don’t like hearing a juvenile product. Or it just further embeds the stereotype that wrestling is quite often trashy TV. I didn’t exclude religion from my reasoning, but it’s just blatantly incorrect to represent my point like it was the crux when you were the one who introduced it.

I’m sure it’s fun for you to say I am disconnected from reality to try and dismiss my points without actually arguing against them (although I’m sure you COULD, right?), but it’s quite ironic that you cannot respond to a direct question, which I am going to pose again:

Do you deny that AEW’s ratings are declining? Let’s see who is disconnecting from reality.

[GD]

Ratings and demos mean nothing for wrestling

The NHL does lower ratings and demos than Dynamite on the same Network but has $100 million dollar in advertising. It's a "legacy" brand. The WWE is inching towards being that. Stephanie McMahon does not get NEARLY enough credit for all her work changing the perception of the company in the business world.

Whoa! Are we making fair and logical arguments now?

[Mr. Nerfect]

Ratings and demos mean nothing for wrestling

The NHL does lower ratings and demos than Dynamite on the same Network but has $100 million dollar in advertising. It's a "legacy" brand. The WWE is inching towards being that. Stephanie McMahon does not get NEARLY enough credit for all her work changing the perception of the company in the business world.

They mean what a network wants them to mean at the end of the day. They could be used to tout its success, or they could drop wrestling tomorrow citing them as not being sufficient enough. Numbers can be made to do tricks.

To play devil’s advocate, the NHL is a sport where different teams are going to be playing against each other, which means that even though the week-to-week ratings might be lower, you may end up reaching more people over the period of a season. But it’s true that even if that weren’t the case, hockey fans are probably more valuable to advertisers than many wrestling fans. That’s just the perception, and it may be backed up by trends in spending and the ability of those people to influence.

The analysis and interpretation of the ratings by many wrestling fans is irritating though, because as you point out, they don’t mean what wrestling fans make them out to mean. At the end of the day, a network is going to care more about the advertising revenue than they are that specific number. If a show that gets 650k, a demo of 0.28 or whatever, is more profitable than a show that does double that, having 1.3 million viewers and a 0.56 in a demo isn’t necessarily going to save you.

And that’s why people who act like Dynamite is “catching” Raw are missing so much of the bigger picture. Never mind that Warner splits the ad revenue with AEW, WWE is an established brand with much broader international exposure and that is a PG show, which is going to open it up to advertisers in different ways. Plus it’s way more successful with women. And there are way more ways to engage now. YouTube, Peacock, Hulu and even alternate deals (some places order the full shows as well as a one hour version).

I think part of it is a hangover from the Monday Night Wars, where cable was advancing, instead of declining, with wrestling at the forefront and the actual fate of the promotions at stake. But a part of it are wrestling journalists looking for a story in the numbers to always have something to print for an audience that is willing to buy it. And wrestling’s nature is testosterone-driven combat, so it lends itself to a natural “A vs. B” scenario, lol.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Like, when it comes to NXT 2.0 and how “old” that audience is: NXT is still shown on the WWE Network, right? I haven’t kept up to date on that story, but do we know how many younger people are watching NXT 2.0 through their PlayStation or whatever? Yet we have such this clear narrative that Vince and Bruce are “failing” with this thing. For all we know, NXT is more profitable to the USA Network with its PG rating and connection to the WWE brand than Dynamite is to TNT with its higher ratings but with the revenue split. Never mind how valuable NXT 2.0 could be to NBC Universal in general in addition to that.

Way more fun to point and laugh at this product that is testing out greener guys, both behind the camera and in front of it, without overexposing them, and calling it an out of touch failure.

The framing of the ratings drives me nuts, lol. But it is fun to point out that allegedly “hip” product managed to climb to 1.2 million people and is now closer to half of that. I’ll admit to enjoying a bit of schadenfreude. And it’s always a nice feeling when you get proven right about something, lol.

Thanksgiving Eve? Okay, I get that is likely going to be down. People might be on the road. I mean, when wrestling is hot Thanksgiving was a pretty huge night for it. And as many people as you have on the road, you’re also going to have people chilling out in front of the TV in anticipation for a holiday too. But to be DOWN from even that? Can people just admit there is something that this product is or isn’t doing that isn’t connecting with as many wrestling fans as it could be?

If you like it? Fine. But stop telling me it’s “hot” or that it’s growing an audience.

[#1-norm-fan]

When Noid can’t bring himself to come up with some bullshit that even suits his poor bullshit standards, you know the embarrassment is running deep.

That Survivor Series thread where he basically admitted that he’s irrational and has his own record of events that don’t mesh with the demonstrable events of reality is gonna haunt this poor bastard’s dreams. Just gonna be a lot of:

“You can’t have a rational discussion and here’s the actual proof.”

“YEAH? BUT KENNY OMEGA SUCKS! ARGUE THAT! YOU CAN’T!”

[Mr. Nerfect]

When Noid can’t bring himself to come up with some bullshit that even suits his poor bullshit standards, you know the embarrassment is running deep.

That Survivor Series thread where he basically admitted that he’s irrational and has his own record of events that don’t mesh with the demonstrable events of reality is gonna haunt this poor bastard’s dreams. Just gonna be a lot of:

“You can’t have a rational discussion and here’s the actual proof.”

“YEAH? BUT KENNY OMEGA SUCKS! ARGUE THAT! YOU CAN’T!”

Lol, what the fuck are you even going on about at this point? I haven’t said anything about Kenny Omega in some time. Isn’t he out with an injury? I’m making very clear points you are just ignoring. What on earth has been irrational about any of them? Try and stay on topic.

[GD]

fan, he's probably going to threaten to put you on ignore.

[Damian Rey 2.0]

The survivor series thread just exposed noid as a nincompoop who doesn’t actually bother reading results, which takes 5 seconds of work, and instead reads shit on here and got baited and played into thinking the Rock showed up, posted accordingly, then backtracked and tried to play it off. Fucking glorious really. Showed everybody what a dope he was and why trying to discuss anything with him is a waste of time.

[slik]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">WWE Raw, Monday on USA Network:<br>1,599,000 total viewers<br>P18-49 rating: 0.35 (462,000 viewers)<br><br>Lowest P18-49 for Raw on record.<br><br>�� More demos &amp; analysis: <a href="https://t.co/vLrj7Sjc8N">https://t.co/vLrj7Sjc8N</a> <a href="https://t.co/0KBIqv6nv8">pic.twitter.com/0KBIqv6nv8</a></p>&mdash; Brandon Thurston (@BrandonThurston) <a href="https://twitter.com/BrandonThurston/status/1468623439212777475?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">December 8, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[slik]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">This episode was tied for the lowest P18-49 rating for NXT on USA, along with the episode on November 16. The August 3 episode that was preempted to Syfy was lower, with a 0.10 rating.<br><br>NXT ranked #48 among cable originals for the day in the demo, according to Showbuzz Daily.</p>&mdash; Brandon Thurston (@BrandonThurston) <a href="https://twitter.com/BrandonThurston/status/1468688338060255236?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">December 8, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

No ppv bump for WarGames or the Gargano send-off, yowza

[slik]

I did something today I haven't done in a LONG time, I looked at WWE's YT page to see how stuff was doing. They used to get several segments from RAW a week that topped a million views (or higher) on YT clips.

Not anymore apparently. Most watched from RAW this week is Edge/Miz at 500k and Becky/Liv at 600k. This is concerning (in general) for wrestling. Not just WWE, but in general. If live viewers drops but social media views go up, it balances out, but if both drop, that's of note. Because so goes WWE so goes wrestling typically.

[Triple A]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-conversation="none"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Some examples of what rerun programming does on USA Network in primetime, found on <a href="https://t.co/9xLiLX1oNi">https://t.co/9xLiLX1oNi</a>. Most of these are on less favorable nights than Tuesday and none lower than a 0.14 P18-49 rating.<br><br>NXT has averaged 0.14 since October. <a href="https://t.co/ONsG69DlqA">pic.twitter.com/ONsG69DlqA</a></p>&mdash; Brandon Thurston (@BrandonThurston) <a href="https://twitter.com/BrandonThurston/status/1468699235575119874?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">December 8, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[slik]

yikes

[#1-norm-fan]

My spider-senses are tingling...

[Bad News Gertner]

NXT as it is shouldn't be on T.V. It's more "FCW" ish. It should be Networkk exclusive

[GD]

NXT as it is shouldn't be on T.V. It's more "FCW" ish. It should be Networkk exclusive

I couldn't agree more. If I were USA, I'd be very unhappy with the current NXT product.

[Bad News Gertner]

It should be a true developmental. Young, green wrestlers mixed with vets to help them alone. Someone like Silas Young, or hell even Gangrel. He still works and is better than he was during his WWE run. Brian Myers would be great. You can still mix in experienced indie guys.

[xrodmuc316]

Still not entirely sure how 2.0 is supposed to be better than it was. I suppose the real gauge will be if any of these guys are actually utilized on the main roster, because if not then they put in a lot of work for no real purpose.

[GD]

It's a tad scummy to thrust a development style show on USA. I'm sure they didn't pay for this version of the product. Such a format is certainly more suited for the Network. A part of me still wants them to revert back to the "black and gold" brand. Then agan, I was never a regular viewer of the show.

[screech]

I'm with Gertner. It should've stayed on the Network and been developmental. It feels weird when they say guys/girls are being "promoted" from there to RAW/SD because WWE is presenting the show on the same level by airing it on USA.

If you want to keep the feel of the "next generation" like the original show [kinda] was, it probably shouldn't be on TV.

[#1-norm-fan]

It feels weird when they say guys/girls are being "promoted" from there to RAW/SD because WWE is presenting the show on the same level by airing it on USA.

When the show first moved to USA they even moved Charlotte to NXT and had the NXT roster go over Raw and Smackdown in the main event of Survivor Series. It made no sense.

[slik]

Meltzer reports year to year RAW is down 30 percent in 18-49 and 38 percent in 18-34

[Mr. Nerfect]

When the show first moved to USA they even moved Charlotte to NXT and had the NXT roster go over Raw and Smackdown in the main event of Survivor Series. It made no sense.

That was handed to them by circumstance. The Saudi shenanigans happened, so NXT talent were brought in to fill up SmackDown. This was right around Survivor Series. It was a one-off story, where had they had NXT lose, people would have complained that NXT was buried.

I still don’t see where this idea that having Charlotte go to NXT for a brief spell was loading it up. If they really wanted to load up NXT, they could have used Daniel Bryan, Rey Mysterio, Ricochet, Kevin Owens, Asuka and a whole bunch of other main roster talent that the hardcore audience values more. The narrative that WWE really tried their hardest to stomp out AEW just doesn’t hold up.

As for NXT: The show brings in money from USA. It may not do gangbusters, but they also wouldn’t want to overexpose their young talent. It’s a tightrope act. I’d rather they moved NXT back to the Network and/or Hulu and used the USA slot for a different show. But given that NXT does have a presence on the Network, it’s quite possible the show isn’t the complete failure for WWE and NBC Universal that Meltzer and minds make it out to be.

If they wanted to keep NXT on USA without going back to the boutique hardcore fan servicing product, I think there’s a line between black and gold and 2.0 that they can hit. Mix in young developmental guys with experienced vets, like NXT initially was. I used to love it when Aiden English would wrestle Rob Van Dam and Sheamus. Or that brief stint you got Cesaro down there. But that might be the way they are going with them just promoting the old Black and Gold as babyfaces in the War Games match, apparently. They could be resting the concept and introducing elements of it being developmental before they steer it in a more synthesized direction.

[GD]

:roll:

[#1-norm-fan]

So because they had to fill out part of the roster for a show or two with NXT stars on account of the Saudi thing that forced their hand to make an entire invasion angle that culminated on one of their biggest shows of the year and NXT had to win the “war” because otherwise... the internet would have complained?

And why the hell would they have put Charlotte, their biggest female star to a casual audience, on NXT and made her champion at this same time? Was that somehow forced by the Saudi ordeal too? They were trying to make it a legit 3rd brand by presenting it to their main audience as on par with Raw and Smackdown. And it was dumb.

To the large majority of the Raw/Smackdown audience, some indy guys came in, went over the guys they watch every week and then vanished. Lol

[Mr. Nerfect]

So because they had to fill out part of the roster for a show or two with NXT stars on account of the Saudi thing that forced their hand to make an entire invasion angle that culminated on one of their biggest shows of the year and NXT had to win the “war” because otherwise... the internet would have complained?

And why the hell would they have put Charlotte, their biggest female star to a casual audience, on NXT and made her champion at this same time? Was that somehow forced by the Saudi ordeal too? They were trying to make it a legit 3rd brand by presenting it to their main audience as on par with Raw and Smackdown. And it was dumb.

To the large majority of the Raw/Smackdown audience, some indy guys came in, went over the guys they watch every week and then vanished. Lol

There wasn’t really a war, dude. It was a short-term angle. Hence why it ended short-term. Yes, people absolutely would have complained if NXT was sent packing. 100%. People are complaining that they won.

There a bunch of reasons to put Charlotte in a different environment. A fresh use for Charlotte herself. A chance to look at Rhea Ripley. Taking one NXT program and giving it the Mania stage to encourage people to check it out (not a giant marketing campaign to go all-out). I don’t get how someone sees Charlotte in NXT and goes “Holy shit, the WWE are REALLY trying here!” I feel like I’m repeating myself, but it makes no sense. A proper Raw/NXT crossover? Sure. That’d be them hot-shotting both sides. But sending Charlotte to NXT for a temporary spell? No.

[Mr. Nerfect]

The whole idea that the WWE were desperate as shit to stop AEW (And FAILED! Lol!) is an AEW/Dave Meltzer fiction. I heard a YouTube clip from Dave and in the same show he said both that the WWE was trying to load up NXT to destroy Dynamite, and that WWE didn’t promote the show. People want to have their cake and eat it in numerous different ways, because WWE =bad, AEW = good.

Charlotte showing up for a program in NXT is the WWE moving heaven and earth to crush AEW. Cody doing moonsaults off cages in build-ups to PPVs isn’t hot-shotting. WWE drops an angle, it’s “Stupid WWE and their bad storytelling.” AEW does it and it’s “long-term storytelling.” The dialogue is so skewered, and that’s always been one of my biggest problems with it.

The WWE could have had Roman Reigns, Daniel Bryan, Randy Orton and whoever the fuck they wanted on NXT in that slot every week and it would have been fair. Charlotte, The Revival and a one-off appearance from Sasha Banks (who is probably the biggest mover there), is not them taking the gloves off.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Also, can anyone dispute my assertion that it is possible NXT 2.0 does way better than perceived to when you factor in Peacock numbers? Serious question. For all I know, it doesn’t even have a Network presence anymore. But if it does, who is to say that those numbers don’t see it overtake Dynamite in terms of audience? What indicators do we have there?

The drop in audience since the move from black and gold to the 2.0 aesthetic and direction is obviously not preferred. I mean, you’d want to stay steady, maybe even see an increase. But radical changes like that are going to generate attention and then likely cause a disconnect between the previous audience and a new one. Do we know the timeframe placed on this to solidify its own following?

It’s fun to speculate. Believe me, I have so much fun with the AEW numbers every week. But does anyone actually have a clue how well NXT 2.0 does overall, and what its actual value to NBC Universal is?

[screech]

When the show first moved to USA they even moved Charlotte to NXT and had the NXT roster go over Raw and Smackdown in the main event of Survivor Series. It made no sense.

Didn't Keith Lee have "a good showing" in that Survivor Series match and then disappear back to NXT for months? What a weird turn of events.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Keith Lee may have disappeared back to NXT because he was on NXT at the time.

[Mr. Nerfect]

872k for Dynamite. Very surprised they saw a slight increase from the previous week. Still a very poor number though.

[slik]

Stuck in the 800s

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">AEW Dynamite last night on TNT:<br>872,000 viewers<br>P18-49 rating: 0.33 (about 430,000 viewers)<br><br>��More demos &amp; analysis: <a href="https://t.co/A77xrNgSgw">https://t.co/A77xrNgSgw</a> <a href="https://t.co/xkEwUW0oIC">pic.twitter.com/xkEwUW0oIC</a></p>&mdash; Brandon Thurston (@BrandonThurston) <a href="https://twitter.com/BrandonThurston/status/1469051814825840640?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">December 9, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[slik]

Didn't Keith Lee have "a good showing" in that Survivor Series match and then disappear back to NXT for months? What a weird turn of events.

Yes

The Royal Rumble too

[Bad News Gertner]

Oooooooo


R.I.P

[Mr. Nerfect]

And 499k for Rampy the Show that Tried.

[slik]

It seems like every wrestling show, minus SD, is in a ratings slump. Not great!

RAW, NXT, Dynamite, Rampage, Impact, MLW all in the mud

[slik]

^ Last time I looked at MLW ratings since it moved to VICE it was something like 14k viewers. Hopefully they've gone up since then.

[#1-norm-fan]

There wasn’t really a war, dude. It was a short-term angle. Hence why it ended short-term. Yes, people absolutely would have complained if NXT was sent packing. 100%. People are complaining that they won.

There a bunch of reasons to put Charlotte in a different environment. A fresh use for Charlotte herself. A chance to look at Rhea Ripley. Taking one NXT program and giving it the Mania stage to encourage people to check it out (not a giant marketing campaign to go all-out). I don’t get how someone sees Charlotte in NXT and goes “Holy shit, the WWE are REALLY trying here!” I feel like I’m repeating myself, but it makes no sense. A proper Raw/NXT crossover? Sure. That’d be them hot-shotting both sides. But sending Charlotte to NXT for a temporary spell? No.

Why do you keep mentioning people complaining? Do you actually think Vince put NXT over to avoid the internet complaining? If not then how is it relevant? I’m saying it was a dumb idea. If you think it was done to avoid the internet complaining then it was an even dumber idea. If you don’t think that’s why it was done then what’s your point?

Charlotte heading over at the same time COULD have been for reasons other than trying to legitimize it as a 3rd brand. The fact that it coincided with NXT winning a battle for brand supremacy out of the blue though...

[xrodmuc316]

Stuck in the 800s

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">AEW Dynamite last night on TNT:<br>872,000 viewers<br>P18-49 rating: 0.33 (about 430,000 viewers)<br><br>��More demos &amp; analysis: <a href="https://t.co/A77xrNgSgw">https://t.co/A77xrNgSgw</a> <a href="https://t.co/xkEwUW0oIC">pic.twitter.com/xkEwUW0oIC</a></p>&mdash; Brandon Thurston (@BrandonThurston) <a href="https://twitter.com/BrandonThurston/status/1469051814825840640?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">December 9, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

The ratings do not matter because no matter what they get, Tony Khan will brag/spin it, as will the dirt sheet writers on his payroll.

[Triple A]

Too much wrestling on TV since NXT moved to Tuesday and Rampage debuted

[slik]

I think you are right. The market feels oversaturated.

[#1-norm-fan]

It’s felt that way for a while. Couple that with the fact that “epic” shit has to happen constantly to keep people tuning in and it’s just hours upon hours of “epic” shit that then starts to feel commonplace. And you can’t dial it back.

[Jordan]

season one and two of NXT was the best. I miss pro's and rookies, NXT should b WWE'S VERSION of the challenge.

[xrodmuc316]

season one and two of NXT was the best. I miss pro's and rookies, NXT should b WWE'S VERSION of the challenge.

Three Words:

Season Three Kaitlyn :drool:

[screech]

It won't happen, but NXT reverting to the rookies and pros format would be great.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Why do you keep mentioning people complaining? Do you actually think Vince put NXT over to avoid the internet complaining? If not then how is it relevant? I’m saying it was a dumb idea. If you think it was done to avoid the internet complaining then it was an even dumber idea. If you don’t think that’s why it was done then what’s your point?

Charlotte heading over at the same time COULD have been for reasons other than trying to legitimize it as a 3rd brand. The fact that it coincided with NXT winning a battle for brand supremacy out of the blue though...

My point is that the shitty but profitable Saudi deal forced their hand. They felt like they had to use NXT talent around the Survivor Series. That led to them getting used at the actual show. They decided to have them go over instead of “burying” them (as the internet erroneously uses the term).

Charlotte’s NXT run came later. That started with the Royal Rumble, which was 2 months later. I can’t remember if she even went to NXT full-time or was just slumming around Raw sometimes showing up there, or if that started with her NXT Title win or what. But they didn’t really coincide.

[#1-norm-fan]

Nothing about the Saudi deal forced them to book an NXT vs Raw/Smackdown program for Survivor Series. You’re just saying what they decided to do and using “Saudi deal” as an excuse without explanation. And you still haven’t given a reason why NXT went over other than “people would have complained/erroneously accused them of burying them.”

[Mr. Nerfect]

Nothing about the Saudi deal forced them to book an NXT vs Raw/Smackdown program for Survivor Series. You’re just saying what they decided to do and using “Saudi deal” as an excuse without explanation. And you still haven’t given a reason why NXT went over other than “people would have complained/erroneously accused them of burying them.”

I said they felt like their hand was forced. Could they have done Daniel Bryan vs. Fandango or whatever the fuck was available on the SmackDown side at the time? Sure, probably. But they had half (maybe more) of their roster over in Saudi Arabia unable to make it back to SmackDown so they used NXT talent (and Pat McAfee in the booth). If they had the talent back, they probably wouldn’t have done it at all.

Once NXT were in it, they decided to put them over at Survivor Series. Was the intent to give them a little boost? Sure, probably. But what were they supposed to do? Have Raw and SmackDown demolish them and send them back to Orlando in a crate? They put some of their guys over because that’s the situation they were in — right, wrong or otherwise. It wasn’t some massive grand plan to make NXT the dominant brand in all of WWE. It doesn’t mean that NXT was forever going to have a heavy presence on either Raw or SmackDown. It was a glorified cameo. And the fill-ins got the wins, which is pretty standard.

It also could have been more about the other shows losing. Not that that went anywhere. But to pretend that the WWE’s mind in this was “NXT must crush AEW!” is very markish.

[GD]

I remember a time when Noid explained how ratings and wrestling trends worked in South Asia. When I had something to say about it, he suggested that he had friends from the subcontinent. I guess they know more.

[GD]

I said they felt like their hand was forced. Could they have done Daniel Bryan vs. Fandango or whatever the fuck was available on the SmackDown side at the time? Sure, probably. But they had half (maybe more) of their roster over in Saudi Arabia unable to make it back to SmackDown so they used NXT talent (and Pat McAfee in the booth). If they had the talent back, they probably wouldn’t have done it at all.

Once NXT were in it, they decided to put them over at Survivor Series. Was the intent to give them a little boost? Sure, probably. But what were they supposed to do? Have Raw and SmackDown demolish them and send them back to Orlando in a crate? They put some of their guys over because that’s the situation they were in — right, wrong or otherwise. It wasn’t some massive grand plan to make NXT the dominant brand in all of WWE. It doesn’t mean that NXT was forever going to have a heavy presence on either Raw or SmackDown. It was a glorified cameo. And the fill-ins got the wins, which is pretty standard.

It also could have been more about the other shows losing. Not that that went anywhere. But to pretend that the WWE’s mind in this was “NXT must crush AEW!” is very markish.


Logic loopholes so big could make the titanic sink in a minute flat.

[screech]

re: NXT going back to being Network-exclusive - it should also go back to being a one hour show. Secondary (or third...dary?) shows shouldn't be two hours.

[GD]

Tertiary

[#1-norm-fan]

I said they felt like their hand was forced. Could they have done Daniel Bryan vs. Fandango or whatever the fuck was available on the SmackDown side at the time? Sure, probably. But they had half (maybe more) of their roster over in Saudi Arabia unable to make it back to SmackDown so they used NXT talent (and Pat McAfee in the booth). If they had the talent back, they probably wouldn’t have done it at all.

Once NXT were in it, they decided to put them over at Survivor Series. Was the intent to give them a little boost? Sure, probably. But what were they supposed to do? Have Raw and SmackDown demolish them and send them back to Orlando in a crate? They put some of their guys over because that’s the situation they were in — right, wrong or otherwise. It wasn’t some massive grand plan to make NXT the dominant brand in all of WWE. It doesn’t mean that NXT was forever going to have a heavy presence on either Raw or SmackDown. It was a glorified cameo. And the fill-ins got the wins, which is pretty standard.

It also could have been more about the other shows losing. Not that that went anywhere.

Actually, you said their hand WAS forced. Multiple times. But alright. So now they just FELT LIKE their hand was forced. The Saudi deal made them FEEL LIKE their hand was forced to have main roster vs NXT matches one night on Smackdown. Not the worst thing in the world. Now make the leap from there to having to do a brand war between the main roster and developmental on a major PPV/Network special.

And once this bad idea train was rolling... While your “demolish them and send them home in a crate” is an exaggeration yes, your developmental guys should not be booked to win a “battle for brand supremacy” over your main roster. Lol

Unless of course you’re trying to push your developmental brand as a legit on-par brand with the rest... Which is dumb... Which is my point.

[#1-norm-fan]

Logic loopholes so big could make the titanic sink in a minute flat.

Maybe... I’m trying a nice approach here though. Lol

[screech]

This re-re-brand NXT as developmental again has given me a thread idea so I don't have to bury it in this mess.

[#1-norm-fan]

re: NXT going back to being Network-exclusive - it should also go back to being a one hour show. Secondary (or third...dary?) shows shouldn't be two hours.

Yeah. That would also allow them to not have to put guys on every week to fill time. I know they’ll never go back to a traditional developmental system but they should find a nice middle ground between making money off of it and not overexposing guys before they’re even ready for the main roster. Even if the exposure is to a relatively small portion of the main roster audience.

[xrodmuc316]

Playing Devil's advocate, I dont think he means the financial deal with Saudi, I think he means the Saudi plane situation. With most of the roster stuck in Saudi Arabia, Smackdown had a very limited number of wrestlers who either did not go on that trip, or got out on a private jet.

Instead of putting on a show with a limited amount of people, they had the NXT roster fill in. The timeframe with Survivor Series coming up was the easiest storyline to explain kayfabe why they were there.

After that, Vince booked them the way he did because that is what Vince wanted to do at the time. It certainly was not a long term plan. All they got out of it afterwards was Keith Lee's surprise Rumble entry, and Shayna and Rhea putting over Becky and Charlotte at Mania.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Actually, you said their hand WAS forced. Multiple times. But alright. So now they just FELT LIKE their hand was forced. The Saudi deal made them FEEL LIKE their hand was forced to have main roster vs NXT matches one night on Smackdown. Not the worst thing in the world. Now make the leap from there to having to do a brand war between the main roster and developmental on a major PPV/Network special.

And once this bad idea train was rolling... While your “demolish them and send them home in a crate” is an exaggeration yes, your developmental guys should not be booked to win a “battle for brand supremacy” over your main roster. Lol

Unless of course you’re trying to push your developmental brand as a legit on-par brand with the rest... Which is dumb... Which is my point.

Holy shit, I was almost about to concede you were right about something, but then I re-read what I said: “My point is that the shitty but profitable Saudi deal forced their hand. They feltlike they had to use NXT talent…” Context is key. ;) My intended implication was that their hand was forced, because they felt like they had to do something. I don’t agree that they HAD to, but that’s still their hand being forced. You’ll argue this black and blue, but that was my point, and this is me clarifying and being “nice” about it. I also went back to see if I have said it multiple times. I do not think I have.

The SmackDown/NXT crossover happened right around Survivor Series. I think this was the second week of November? You do SmackDown vs. NXT then, I don’t see how it is a massive leap to have NXT at the Survivor Series. It goes to follow.

Should Nexus have gone over John Cena at SummerSlam 2010? The intended story could have been that Raw and SmackDown have too many issues and NXT’s unity was what helped them snatch up some victories. In fact, I think that was an element to the story at some point, although I cannot be sure it wasn’t dropped, butchered or made inconsequential. My argument isn’t that the WWE told this story exceptionally well — just that there are many reasons you wouldn’t just swat down NXT on the night besides “WWE IS TRYING SO HARD TO DESTROY AEW!!!!”

NXT could have taken a huge perception blow had they been steamrolled by Raw and SmackDown. And I think if you were being honest about it, you would admit that had that happened, you’d be one of the people here mocking them for it. It’s damned if they do, damned if they don’t with you. Having them go over on one night doesn’t kill Raw or SmackDown off. It could have been used to fuel more stories (not saying that it WAS, just that it COULD have been). It gives them a little bit of a rub. It doesn’t mean that NXT is now the #1 show in wrestling. Once you have them there, it’s the common sense outcome. You don’t bring them up to lose, lol.

[GD]

Oh dang! He got you there, King fan. Case closed.

[#1-norm-fan]

Holy shit, I was almost about to concede you were right about something, but then I re-read what I said: “My point is that the shitty but profitable Saudi deal forced their hand. They feltlike they had to use NXT talent…” Context is key. ;) My intended implication was that their hand was forced, because they felt like they had to do something. I don’t agree that they HAD to, but that’s still their hand being forced. You’ll argue this black and blue, but that was my point, and this is me clarifying and being “nice” about it. I also went back to see if I have said it multiple times. I do not think I have.

The SmackDown/NXT crossover happened right around Survivor Series. I think this was the second week of November? You do SmackDown vs. NXT then, I don’t see how it is a massive leap to have NXT at the Survivor Series. It goes to follow.

If they didn't HAVE to then their hand wasn't forced. You can't have it both ways. And if their hand wasn't ACTUALLY forced we're already starting on a premise of them doing what they want. Even if they felt compelled to use NXT one night against Smackdown guys, that didn't force them to turn it into a major angle for their next big show. They made a conscious decision to run with the angle.

NXT could have taken a huge perception blow had they been steamrolled by Raw and SmackDown. And I think if you were being honest about it, you would admit that had that happened, you’d be one of the people here mocking them for it. It’s damned if they do, damned if they don’t with you.

The development guys SHOULD lose to the main roster stars. If your arm is twisted and you absolutely have to book it (WHICH, AGAIN, THEY DIDN'T), you don't put guys who aren't main roster ready over your main roster. It's fucking stupid. NXT was already perceived as the "minor leagues". Putting up a fight but losing to the major league doesn't hurt anything. Unless your goal is to push your development brand as an equal to your main roster. Which is stupid. Which is my point.

And ultimately your argument against that point is...

My argument isn’t that the WWE told this story exceptionally well — just that there are many reasons you wouldn’t just swat down NXT on the night besides “WWE IS TRYING SO HARD TO DESTROY AEW!!!!”

Another awkward attempt to shoehorn your AEW obsession into a conversation. I literally mentioned AEW 0 times while you've kept trying to argue against an imaginary "WWE WAS TRYING SO HARD TO DESTROY AEW!!!!” narrative. lol

[Jordan]

If you look at the ratings was side by side taking into consideration WWE history and AEW history, AEW has blown away anything WWE has ever done by being such a huge success on cable much quicker than WWF was when it first went on USA.

[Mr. Nerfect]

If they didn't HAVE to then their hand wasn't forced. You can't have it both ways. And if their hand wasn't ACTUALLY forced we're already starting on a premise of them doing what they want. Even if they felt compelled to use NXT one night against Smackdown guys, that didn't force them to turn it into a major angle for their next big show. They made a conscious decision to run with the angle.

If you felt like your hand is forced, you are going to act like you have to play the hand. You’re arguing semantics and it’s textbook for you, but that is where the conversation stops. You absolutely can have it both ways. A shotgun wedding doesn’t literally need a shotgun.

Of course they turned it into a major angle for their next big show. It was an inter-promotional issue promoted en route to their next big show. They would have been mocked if they had dropped it too.

The development guys SHOULD lose to the main roster stars. If your arm is twisted and you absolutely have to book it (WHICH, AGAIN, THEY DIDN'T), you don't put guys who aren't main roster ready over your main roster. It's fucking stupid. NXT was already perceived as the "minor leagues". Putting up a fight but losing to the major league doesn't hurt anything. Unless your goal is to push your development brand as an equal to your main roster. Which is stupid. Which is my point.

There are cases where it is fine to push fresh talent. I don’t know if they used people that weren’t main roster ready on the show. I’m not going to go through each name, but I’m pretty sure most of them were fairly experienced at this point and a lot of them would be featured on the main roster within a year.

Whether NXT was or wasn’t perceived as the “minor leagues” and how intentional that was or wasn’t is a completely different argument. But even taking your point at face value, there are contexts where having the minor league go over has benefits — to both the minor and the major. It doesn’t mean they have to be equal. Ultimately, you can see that NXT was not pushed as equal, is not pushed as equal, and probably was never intended to be equal.

And ultimately your argument against that point is...



Another awkward attempt to shoehorn your AEW obsession into a conversation. I literally mentioned AEW 0 times while you've kept trying to argue against an imaginary "WWE WAS TRYING SO HARD TO DESTROY AEW!!!!” narrative. lol

That’s what the Wednesday Night Wars were about, bub. That’s the narrative behind WWE trying to push NXT as an alleged monster against Dynamite, putting them over everyone else and loading them up with top drawing talent like Charlotte. It’s why we’re having this discussion. You bring up Charlotte and NXT every time it comes up like that was some sort of power play, lol.

Do you deny that narrative exists?

[Mr. Nerfect]

You’re trying to appeal to emotion. What is shoehorned in about AEW in a conversation about the Wednesday night ratings between 2019 and the end of Charlotte’s appearances in 2020? Lol, get fucked with that sneaky shit.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Anyway, back to ratings instead of derailing another thread with that disingenuous cunt:

Winter is Coming should see an increase for Dynamite and Rampage, but it will be concerning if it does not. You can only run so many “special shows” before they stop being special. And historically, these things have been unable to hook people for any longer period of time.

913k for Winter Dynamite last year. It was earlier and went up against NXT, which got 658k. I somehow doubt we’re going to get 1.571 million people watching on Wednesday. I think we’re probably looking at about 960k people for Dynamite. They’ll call that a win.

[xrodmuc316]

"Other stuff is on TV Wednesday, or Dynamite would likely get about 100 million viewers" ~ Dave Meltzer, direct quote

[#1-norm-fan]

That’s what the Wednesday Night Wars were about, bub. That’s the narrative behind WWE trying to push NXT as an alleged monster against Dynamite, putting them over everyone else and loading them up with top drawing talent like Charlotte. It’s why we’re having this discussion. You bring up Charlotte and NXT every time it comes up like that was some sort of power play, lol.

Do you deny that narrative exists?

You’re trying to appeal to emotion. What is shoehorned in about AEW in a conversation about the Wednesday night ratings between 2019 and the end of Charlotte’s appearances in 2020? Lol, get fucked with that sneaky shit.

I literally made the point that they tried to push NXT as a third brand on par with Raw and Smackdown.

That is not the same as the “WWE TRIED THEIR HARDEST TO SQUASH AEW!” argument you decided argue against out of the blue.

It’s shoehorned because it’s literally, 100%, clear as fucking day NOT what was being discussed. Not even remotely. Like... literally 0 to do with AEW and the Wednesday night wars. This should be obvious to anyone with a remotely functioning brain. This entire conversation is available for you and everyone to read. Are you just hoping anyone reading this suffers a traumatic brain injury moments before logging on and what you just said will sound smart? Who are you trying to convince with this batshit crazy rationale?

How braindead/delusional do you plan on getting? You’re reaching new levels at a ridiculous rate.

[#1-norm-fan]

All the rep and honorary king for a day status for anyone who stops me immediately when I try to engage Noid in a rational conversation from now on.

I know a few people enjoy me guiding him down these insane logic holes he goes down but... Goddamn. I gotta break the constant urge to engage with irrational dipshits. It’s an addiction.

[drave]

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[Mr. Nerfect]

I literally made the point that they tried to push NXT as a third brand on par with Raw and Smackdown.

That is not the same as the “WWE TRIED THEIR HARDEST TO SQUASH AEW!” argument you decided argue against out of the blue.

It’s shoehorned because it’s literally, 100%, clear as fucking day NOT what was being discussed. Not even remotely. Like... literally 0 to do with AEW and the Wednesday night wars. This should be obvious to anyone with a remotely functioning brain. This entire conversation is available for you and everyone to read. Are you just hoping anyone reading this suffers a traumatic brain injury moments before logging on and what you just said will sound smart? Who are you trying to convince with this batshit crazy rationale?

How braindead/delusional do you plan on getting? You’re reaching new levels at a ridiculous rate.

They’ve never promoted it as being on par with Raw and SmackDown. You’re just wrong, lol. Putting them over on a couple of shows before sending them back down into third tier is not the same thing.

It’s not out of the blue. That was the narrative Dave Meltzer and AEW apologists have pushed since NXT went to the USA Network. Are you going to deny that? I don’t need you to say it to point out that the idea that the Survivor Series and Charlotte going to NXT for a cup of coffee were not plans to shoot NXT into unrivalled air. You’ve read the whole situation wrong, and have for ages, way beyond this thread.

[Mr. Nerfect]

All the rep and honorary king for a day status for anyone who stops me immediately when I try to engage Noid in a rational conversation from now on.

I know a few people enjoy me guiding him down these insane logic holes he goes down but... Goddamn. I gotta break the constant urge to engage with irrational dipshits. It’s an addiction.

Lol, you’re not rational.

[Mr. Nerfect]

The internet is full of people who think the WWE is run so stupidly, but they’re stupider than the company is. You are the epitome of that. If you cannot understand why the WWE may have chosen to supplement its roster while most of them were stuck over in Saudi Arabia, why they followed that to a logical conclusion, and how this was not them going all out, and how this connects to bullshit being spewed about the WWE’s mentality in how they positioned NXT, then you cannot be helped. You’ve started with the conclusion you want and will just try to insult people who don’t agree with you.

Is anyone confused as to how the WWE apparently trying to push NXT as a legitimate third tier brand connects to the Wednesday Night Wars? Anyone? Man, that shit’s so imaginary. Pretending that happened is just irrational. Lol, fuck off.

[#1-norm-fan]

Good man, drave. Good man.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Your disingenuous ass is going on ignore. You haven’t made a post with any meat on it in some time. And it’s not worth engaging with the baiting tactics and whataboutism.

[#1-norm-fan]

It took a lot of embarrassing moments for him to finally go with the fake ignore flex.

Regardless, the temptation of the derp interaction is gone. Christmas has come early for fan.

[screech]

Making up shit to be mad about was xrod's gimmick for a while. He should sue Noid for infringement.

[GD]

Your disingenuous ass is going on ignore. You haven’t made a post with any meat on it in some time. And it’s not worth engaging with the baiting tactics and whataboutism.

Noid now has half of the wrestling forum on “fake ignore”. In the end, it’ll just be his little echo chamber and Gertner egging him on for the lulz.

[Bad News Gertner]

People hate hearing a difference of opinion. Without Noid and xrodmuc this forum would be dead.

[GD]

People hate hearing a difference of opinion. Without Noid and xrodmuc this forum would be dead.

Lock Jaw and I are relatively critical of the product. Our opinion doesn’t necessarily align with everyone else’s. We are not assholes about it.

[#1-norm-fan]

People hate hearing a difference of opinion.

Some people hate it so much that they’ll awkwardly try to push conversations to a completely unrelated subject just so they can bitch about it and then shout out “fallacy!” when it doesn’t work like a Goddamn retard.

[Mr. Nerfect]

People hate hearing a difference of opinion. Without Noid and xrodmuc this forum would be dead.

Much appreciated, Big Man. :y:

[Mr. Nerfect]

Saw an interesting thing regarding ratings in Canada:

You’ve all heard the narrative that AEW does better than WWE in Canada, right? Or that they’re highly competitive. Then you’ll hear that AEW is more viewed in the UK than WWE, but that doesn’t count because AEW is on free-to-air.

I saw someone point out that the WWE has multiple replays of Raw and SmackDown throughout a week. They also have recap shows that air numerous times. AEW doesn’t have anywhere near the exposure, and basically airs once a week. So comparing a single Raw viewership to AEW’s is disingenuous, because presumably those replays do numbers as well, otherwise other things would be in those slots.

[xrodmuc316]

If AEW was really doing great in the ratings, they wouldnt need to spin it every week with a different narrative. I laughed out loud last week when Meltzer made a point to brag that AEW won the 25-54 demo in Canada, which is the "most important" Canadian demo.

[Mr. Nerfect]

If AEW was really doing great in the ratings, they wouldnt need to spin it every week with a different narrative. I laughed out loud last week when Meltzer made a point to brag that AEW won the 25-54 demo in Canada, which is the "most important" Canadian demo.

Holy shit, he did not? Wow.

If these demos were as comparable and important as Meltzer says, why not just go head-to-head with Raw? You know, instead of comparing two different nights of television with different levels of competition? Because we all know what would happen. They have to pick out these weird, obscure and frankly trivial “victories” which have no wider context.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I’ve seen it pointed out that Danielson’s segments are often among the lowest rated on the show. Turns out turning him heel and having him work extended matches with babyface jobbers may have actually been a silly decision after all. Funny that.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Serious question re: Rampage cancellation:

How does that affect Dynamite’s position with WarnerMedia? When they signed their new deal, the impression given was that they were getting their $45 million a year or whatever for Dynamite + a new show. I’m sure Warner have it in there that they can cancel Rampage and just pay AEW less money, but it’s possible that Warner tries to renegotiate the AEW deal and they really give those fuckers the shaft.

There are some big obstacles facing AEW, between Rampage flopping and Dynamite possibly hitting a wall on TBS. They should be making decisions to grow an audience instead of appealing to a dwindling hardcore one that is going to applaud for the most mind-numbing shit.

[xrodmuc316]

Holy shit, he did not? Wow.

If these demos were as comparable and important as Meltzer says, why not just go head-to-head with Raw? You know, instead of comparing two different nights of television with different levels of competition? Because we all know what would happen. They have to pick out these weird, obscure and frankly trivial “victories” which have no wider context.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Go figure, AEW Dynamite was the most-watched wrestling show overall and 25-54 (Canadian key demo) of the week and maybe highest of the year and among its biggest ever.</p>&mdash; Dave Meltzer (@davemeltzerWON) <a href="https://twitter.com/davemeltzerWON/status/1466538757830578183?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">December 2, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

But yeah, he is sooooooooo not on AEW's payroll :rofl:

[Mr. Nerfect]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Go figure, AEW Dynamite was the most-watched wrestling show overall and 25-54 (Canadian key demo) of the week and maybe highest of the year and among its biggest ever.</p>&mdash; Dave Meltzer (@davemeltzerWON) <a href="https://twitter.com/davemeltzerWON/status/1466538757830578183?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">December 2, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

But yeah, he is sooooooooo not on AEW's payroll :rofl:

Holy shit. He knows that is absolute bullshit. But to be honest, I don’t think he even needs to be paid. He’s a complete simp for this company.

[Mr. Nerfect]

The thing is, I’m not even sure this denial is helping AEW at all. As annoying as the narrative is, I think ignoring their problems is going to do a lot more long-term damage than short-term good.

[#1-norm-fan]

The rest of this page is just gonna be Noid over-posting until it’s buried by the next page and the embarrassment can be hidden away.

[Sting Fan]

The rest of this page is just gonna be Noid over-posting until it’s buried by the next page and the embarrassment can be hidden away.

Just skip the Noid stuff, honestly shittest opinions on the internet which is a pretty big call.

Only thing worth paying attention for is the day Noid accidentally quotes himself and disagrees with his own shit take... its coming.

[GD]

Our last line of defense is gone. The king has fallen. What a pity.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Just skip the Noid stuff, honestly shittest opinions on the internet which is a pretty big call.

Only thing worth paying attention for is the day Noid accidentally quotes himself and disagrees with his own shit take... its coming.

What makes my opinions shit, Sting Fan? Oh, that they’re backed up by logic and you can’t argue against them? Fucking drone. You could at least try to make demonstrably wrong points against me before falling apart and turning into a total shit-show.

[TNARICK1]

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Vince Russo and Glen Gilberti called it. Punk and Daniels did nothing for the ratings and were not game changers at all. AEW didn't know how to book them because the owner is a dirt sheet mark sheep. Just wait until the TBS move where the ratings will tank even more and watch the AEW marks trying to come up with more and more excuses for why their 30 min matches don't draw.

[Mr. Nerfect]

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Vince Russo and Glen Gilberti called it. Punk and Daniels did nothing for the ratings and were not game changers at all. AEW didn't know how to book them because the owner is a dirt sheet mark sheep. Just wait until the TBS move where the ratings will tank even more and watch the AEW marks trying to come up with more and more excuses for why their 30 min matches don't draw.

They’re right. Mainly Disco (let’s not give Russo credit). Every time AEW has had a spike, the people they attract vote with their remotes. It doesn’t fit the narrative that this is the cool, hip product, but it’s the unavoidable reality — people just ain’t that into you.

I don’t blame Punk and I don’t blame Bryan as much as others (and there are good arguments there). I blame the entire philosophy around this product and what it chooses to surround potential draws in.

When AEW goes to TBS, I think it is going to be a bit of an eye-opener for people. I think that when Dynamite came to TNT, it just replaced a movie or something? Dynamite is going to be knocking back people’s sitcom time. Warner might get some feedback from people about wrestling intruding into their leisure time. AEW needs to be more valuable than a sitcom block. A lot of people are predicting a long-term move into the millions. That number is possible on TNT, but their quality holds them back. TBS is in more homes, but it doesn’t mean more people are going to watch it. I can see the move doing a lot of damage to a segment of the audience and them never coming back.

They’ve got a happy accident with the West Coast coming back. But that does not count for hundreds and thousands of people. Which is sad when you think about the population of it. They’re going to need to bring it when they jump, and I don’t think they know how. Evidence: Their inability to hold viewers after they do something to encourage new people to sample.

[ron the dial]

a TNARICK & Noid tag team? yes please!

[Sting Fan]

What makes my opinions shit, Sting Fan? Oh, that they’re backed up by logic and you can’t argue against them? Fucking drone. You could at least try to make demonstrably wrong points against me before falling apart and turning into a total shit-show.

Shittest cunt with the shittest arguments :wave:

[Mr. Nerfect]

Shittest cunt with the shittest arguments :wave:

Ease up on yourself.